Any suggestions for daughter who wants to go to a serious scholarly school?

College Search & Selection
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<p>My daughter is a rising senior and we would like to spend some time this summer visiting some colleges. Her requirements and desires include: a small college where the academics are the focus. In fact she is like a fish out of water when she is around normal "above average" students, you know, the kids who make Bs with a sprinkling of As in high school. </p>

<p>The problem is her GPA is now in jeopardy ever since she enrolled at the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics, the state boarding school for the highly gifted. The classes there are almost entirely college-level and are extremely rigorous. I'm not sure but I would say the weighted GPA is around 4.15. I'm unsure of her unweighted GPA. She has made several Cs, but they were such high courses that they still gave her 4.0 quality points. BTW these classes were not AP classes. NCSSM discourages students from taking a lot of AP classes since their courses are generally a higher level than AP yet are taught in a shorter time period (one trimester.) This school doesn't rank since all the students who attend there were typically in the top 2% of their class anyway. </p>

<p>Her grades from her home high school were all high As with maybe one or two grades in the 94-95 range. They were all honors courses and there she was ranked either 5 or 6 out 325. When applying to college I'm assuming she won't be able to include those grades in her GPA or will she? If she had stayed at her home school her GPA would have been somewhere close to 5.0. </p>

<p>I'm starting to think that sending her to NCSM has ruined her chances of getting into an elite college. While I'm pretty sure she would have done fine if she had stayed at home. On the other hand I also know that she will now find college much easier and will not balk at the long hours required to be successful. She is much better prepared than if she had stayed at home. </p>

<p>Her SAT scores are acceptable but not outstanding. They are just shy of 700 each. So she will be retaking in the fall. Her ECs are solid: debate for three years, senior editor of the yearbook, etc. with lots of volunteer work and mission trips. </p>

<p>Her first choice school is Davidson. While I think it would be a perfect fit for her, I'm afraid she won't get in. This summer we are visiting Haverford and while we are there, Swarthmore (even though I know she won't get in there!) Most of the kids from her school go to UNC, but she really wants to go to a small school with a strong science program. The other small colleges in NC tend to have a lot of students who couldn't get into Carolina. We would prefer to keep her on the East coast. Do you have any suggestions for rigorous academic small colleges? </p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>What fields of study are your daughter interested in? The schools you’ve mentioned are all LACs, so I’ll assume you’re looking at those. Pomona, Bowdoin, Wellesley, and W&L are all small, strong schools on the East Coast.</p>

<p>As a side note of sorts, I know a little about NCSSM. My friend and roommate for next year used to live right by the school and knows a bunch of kids that go/went. Regional admissions directors will know what a school like NCSSM is all about, and I’m sure they’ll understand the slightly lower grades. A much higher GPA from her home school simply means that the courses would have been easier.</p>

<p>Try and be a little more optimistic. Crazy things happen in admissions. You don’t know what schools your daughter can get into until she’s actually tried.</p>

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<p>I’ve been in your shoes :slight_smile: My older daughter is finishing up her senior high school year at our district’s grade-deflated entry by test high school. <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/860298-flawed-yet-rigorous-transcript-where-look.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/860298-flawed-yet-rigorous-transcript-where-look.html&lt;/a&gt;
She’s going to Tufts in the fall (applied ED). </p>

<p>If there’s any way to contact the school’s counseling staff, ask them about where students with stats similar to your D’s are accepted. When your kid is attending an unusually challenging high school, with a top-notch student body, you can’t just look at college listings for class ranking, GPA, and the like. Adcoms at private schools will know your D’s school and will adjust their expectations. How much they do so will vary from school to school. My D was interested in Pomona (which is in the Los Angeles area) but investigation showed that the admissions folks there really really really like high GPAs, so she lost interest. But it may work for your D–again, ask your D’s school. Public schools will tend to be by-the-numbers, though your in-state option may be aware of the progam and may end up being a safety. But you’ll want to talk to the counseling staff at her school to find out for sure. </p>

<p>For what it’s worth, two things that I think helped my D were 1) falling in love with a school that truly reads applications holistically, and 2) applying ED to a school that tends to be underregarded from her high school. These advantages won’t necessarily work for your daughter, but I throw them out there anyway.</p>

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<p>Some small universities might include VA’s William and Mary. Also Wake Forest might be a good option. It is about as good as UNC, but a lot smaller.</p>

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<p>I agree that you shouldn’t be discouraged at this point. What can they tell you in NCSSM’s guidance department? I imagine they deal with this issue frequently.</p>

<p>I second W & M for your d, though it’s medium sized (6,000 undergrads-plus) than small. Would she consider Smith? Top flight sciences there (and at most, probably all, of the 7 Sisters schools), and definitely a holistic approach to admissions.</p>

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<p>Bryn Mawr & Wellesley definitely fit this bill. I expect that Barnard, Mt. Holyoke, and Smith do as well, but I don’t know as many alumnae from those three, so I can’t speak with as much confidence about them.</p>

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<p>Can you afford the $50K/year those schools will cost?</p>

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<p>So you want rigorous academic small colleges, strong in sciences. Serious, scholarly schools. Preferably on the East Coast. SATs a little less than 700 each. GPA ~=4.15 at a strong boarding school.</p>

<p>Northeast
Haverford, Wesleyan (reach)
Barnard College (women only, high match)
U. Rochester (match)
Bryn Mawr, Smith College (women only, match)
St. Mary’s College of Md (low match/safety)</p>

<p>South
Davidson, Rice (reach)
New College of Florida (low match/safety)</p>

<p>Midwest
University of Chicago, Carleton (reach)
Oberlin, Grinnell, Macalester (match)
Case Western, Earlham, Kalamazoo, Wooster (low match/safety)</p>

<p>West
Reed (low reach)
Colorado College (match)</p>

<p>Rice, Rochester and Case Western are small universities. Chicago is a mid-sized university (but has small average class sizes). The rest are LACs. Although Bryn Mawr and Barnard admit women only, both are affiliated with more selective, co-ed schools (Haverford and Columbia, respectively). The relative science strengths vary from school to school. Some will be relatively strong in life sciences; others in earth sciences or geology; still others in physics or astronomy.</p>

<p>Based on your information, if not for the location, I’d especially recommend Reed College (Portland, Oregon). Reed graduates more students who earn PhDs in the life sciences than any other school but CalTech. It ranks 3rd for per capita PhD production in Math & Statistics, 3rd in the physical sciences, 4th in chemistry, and 4th in physics. Academics are notoriously rigorous, but not cut-throat (students are not shown their final grades unless they ask). </p>

<p>Smith also seems like a great option. It has a beautiful campus in a nice New England town. It belongs to a consortium with 4 other colleges (including Amherst and UMass), which opens up a huge number of classes for such a small school.</p>

<p>Rice, Chicago, and Colorado College are reach or match schools that offer Early Action admissions. This is a wonderful, stress-reducing option.</p>

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<p>tk is right! </p>

<p>UChicago comes to the top of my mind</p>

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<p>I understand wanting to go to a smaller school, but UNC’s in-state value would be hard to turn down. I would recommend your daughter give it more consideration before turning it down.</p>

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<p>If your daughter is looking at selective LACs then she should focus on how to communicate her attractions beyond the statistical side. The small LACs absolutely view the student holistically, but it’s up to the student to present her/himself in the most positive manner.</p>

<p>If she likes Davidson, then I would suggest Williams, Bowdoin, Hamilton, Kenyon. Smith would also be a strong choice though not sure about the cultural fit. </p>

<p>Some comments:</p>

<p>First, what’s your financial situation? Do you need financial aid? If yes, will your family qualify for need based aid? The answers to these questions will shape her list and as a corollary determine whether or not she’ll be in a position to apply ED.</p>

<p>Second, how’s the counseling at NCSSM? Usually schools of this type and caliber are pretty good at getting their seniors into top colleges. If you haven’t already done so meet with the counselor together with your daughter and ask a lot of questions.</p>

<p>Looking at the numbers.
Grades: Good but not great. Plenty of mitigating circumstances. The highschool’s counselor report must explain in depth. Take a look at an example of what they send out and make sure you’re satisfied.
Scores: Under 700 on the SAT doesn’t seem to mesh with highly gifted intellect. Maybe she’s just not such a good test taker? She needs to do some SAT prep, take the ACT, and if all else fails, look at score optional schools or explain, why her scores are lower than expected.
Rank: The school’s no rank policy is good. The same was true of my son’s highschool; however, the counselors did provide a general sector information, e.g., top 10% etc. Find out what your daughter’s counselor will tell the colleges.</p>

<p>Intangibles:
This is what will get her over the top.
Your daughter needs to make sure her dedication, intellectual curiosity shines through in her essays and recommendations.
Interviews can be pluses or minuses. Since many colleges are interview-optional, she’ll have to decide what’s right for her. For example, a strong interview at Swarthmore could make all the difference.
I would definitely find a way to include information from her “old” school. Not clear at what year she transferred to the more demanding school. If she did 9 & 10 at her hometown school then I would ask the counselor or a teacher there to write a supplemental recommendation.</p>

<p>The good thing about small LACs is that they really read everything you send them, so make sure the picture is three dimensional and in color!</p>

<p>Among her ECs what stands out to me are the “mission trips.” Sounds like good essay material and also a point of differentiation among the field of high achieving seniors (maybe not in the South, but less common in the Northeast). Selective colleges are looking for interesting kids who do interesting things, and this is amplified at small colleges. She needs to make sure her application clearly communicates what she can bring to the campus community.</p>

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<p>Thank you for the suggestions so far. In regards to the financial situation. We will qualify for financial aid since our income is less than $60,000. In fact that is one of the reasons I have steered her toward private schools that guarantee that 100% of the need will be met. That’s the problem with state schools, even our own top valued university, UNC. At those schools most of the need will be met through loans. Davidson meets the need 100% without loans. She also looked at Emory where they cap loans at $15,000 for the four years.</p>

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<p>Suggest she also look at Questbridge.</p>

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<p>Just a heads up that 100% of “need” doesn’t necessarily mean that the balance due will be an amount you are comfortable with. The college determines what your “need” is, not you.</p>

<p>I am not saying you won’t get any generous offers, but you can’t know ahead of time how a specific school will view your need. I am not trying to discourage you, but let you know that even though many say 100% of need, that means different things to different schools.</p>

<p>We have had financial aid offers through the years spread over almost a full ride to a balance due of $27K a year - all with about the same EFC.</p>

<p>Questbridge is an excellent suggestion.</p>

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<p>I have to disagree with Momrath: mission trips or the equivalent are a dime a dozen among applicants in the NE.</p>

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<p>Grinnell was the school that came to my mind before you said you want to be on the east coast. A wonderful school for students interested in academics at a small school.</p>

<p>You may want to consider schools that are familiar with the North Carolina School of Science and Mathematics. Unfortunately, colleges that are not familiar with the high school may lose interest because of her grades. Ones that are familiar will take it into context.</p>

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<p>Many if not most of the colleges mentioned here so far, recruit from NCSSM. I remember seeing them at last year’s college fair. I have no idea to what extent they are familiar with the school.</p>

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<p>Indeed this is true. One info session even said directly not to write about a mission trip because these essays all end up the same. I don’t remember which school that was.</p>

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<p>“Pomona, Bowdoin, Wellesley, and W&L are all small, strong schools on the East Coast.”</p>

<p>Pomona is on the west coast.</p>

<p>Hate to quibble, but it’s one of our few big deal LAC’s!</p>

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<p>One thing that she may want to consider is that if she is already quite advanced in a subject like math, and plans to major in it, an undergraduate-only school may not have the depth of offerings to keep her interested. For example, math majors who start in sophomore or junior level math courses as freshmen often take graduate level math courses as undergraduates.</p>

<p>One other question would be, would she be happy at a school where should could find a group of highly intellectually motivated students in her major, even if the rest of the school is populated by “normal above average” students, or even “slackers”? This type of situation often describes good big state flagship universities (the aforementioned math majors tended to associate largely with each other, despite the presence of “slackers” on campus). Or does she feel uncomfortable by the presence of the “normal above average” students and “slackers” even if there is a community of highly intellectually motivated students to associate with?</p>