Any Upper Middle black posters in the house?

<p>Thanks for noticing. I've never had the opportunity to chat online, and have only been a reader to my own story when it comes to the internet, but if you have something to say, sometimes it helps to speak up.</p>

<p>What I meant about the private v. public is that Private universities go out of their way to have diverse populations, where as some public universities are banned for practicing AA. This is why you see higher grad rates at selective colleges.</p>

<p>The other thing that is important in this is that there are roughly under 600 AfA students a year who score higher than 2100 on the SAT's. Trying to divide that number between the top 100 colleges and universities, as you can see, would be rather difficult.</p>

<p>We are getting ready to vote on an AA iniciative that is being brought forth in our state banning the use of AA for college selection. A good place to see how the banning of AA is working is the UC's in CA, and MI. It's not going very well(nor should it).</p>

<p>Bexline</p>

<p>"there are roughly under 600 AfA students a year who score higher than 2100 on the SAT's."</p>

<p>I'm curious. Where is that figure from? I've nerver seen composite scores boken down by race.
also
"This is why you see higher grad rates at selective colleges."</p>

<p>So you are saying affiramative action contributes positively to higher graduation rates? I have read they were higher at the UC's BEFORE they got rid of "afirmative action".</p>

<p>A good place to see how the banning of AA is working is the UC's in CA, and MI. It's not going very well(nor should it).</p>

<p>Not that I disagree, but some would. How would you define "going well"?</p>

<p>Shrinkrap,</p>

<p>Not sure how to do the math -- but I KNOW there's a way to do it using statistics. If you take the number of people taking the test, the mean, and the std deviation -- all shown on the table at the link below, you can calculate the approximate number of people at a given score. I'm going to keep looking to see if I find anything that supports the "roughly 600" claim.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SAT_CR_mathematics_writing_percentile_ranks_gender_ethnic_groups.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SAT_CR_mathematics_writing_percentile_ranks_gender_ethnic_groups.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>So 700 is 99%ile for each of the three tests. Based on ~160,000 af/am students taking the test, approximately 1600 get 700 on a test. How many get 700 or more on all three tests? Or scores that total to 2100 or more? You cannot tell from the table. The scores are correlated (not many people get 800 in critical reasoning and 400 in writing). But without a more detailed description of the correlation among each test, impossible to guess how many get better than 2100. Probably safe to assume the figure is less than 1600.</p>

<p>If you take the number of people taking the test, the mean, and the std deviation -- all shown on the table at the link below, you can calculate the approximate number of people at a given score.</p>

<p>Sounds okay, but way out of my league...</p>

<p>"But without a more detailed description of the correlation among each test, impossible to guess how many get better than 2100. Probably safe to assume the figure is less than 1600."</p>

<p>That's what I was thinking...</p>

<p>So 600 vs 1600....does that change the idea behind bexlines post? I suppose it's less of a sellers market...</p>

<p>OK, I'm no statistician but here is a possible interpretation. </p>

<p>Let's just assume there is high correlation between a student doing well on all three parts. If an AA student scores 650 on any of the three he/she is in the 98 percentile. This means that 2% of AA 160,000 test takers score 650 and above. With the assumption of correlation for good students we can assume that roughly this is the same 2% or 3,200 students.</p>

<p>Does this sound right? Math is certainly not my long suit. BTW this type of info is EXACTLY what I hoped to gain from this site. Thanks so much for that post!</p>

<p>I think I follow you, but I think if you look at the overall composites, the number that get one, two ( cr and math) or three scores over 650 suggest each is a little harder than the last. That'd wehre I think the tough math is.</p>

<p>24,550 got 650 in cr
12,154 got 1300 im cr + math
7,248 got 1950 composite....of course there were many who exceded these numbers in each group.</p>

<p>Bexline, congrats on your daughter. I had previously seen the article from USA Today on CC - a CCer had seen it and posted it. How is she doing at UPenn?</p>

<p>Triguena (love the name - Venezuelan?) and Shrinkrap, there is actually an article from The</a> Journal of Blacks in Higher Education that provides some of the data that you are looking for. </p>

<p>To be frank, the data (for 2005) is not encouraging:</p>

<p>
[quote]
only 1,132 African-American college-bound students scored 700 or above on the math SAT and only 1,205 scored at least 700 on the verbal SAT.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
in the entire country 244 blacks scored 750 or above on the math SAT and 363 black students scored 750 or above on the verbal portion of the test.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Thank you! I think we have up to date verbal and math scores (post 123) but we were wondering about the composite scores. I'll check the journal for those.</p>

<p>Y'all,</p>

<p>Someone can slap my wrist and kick me into another thread if this turns out to be a really stupid question but I've secretly wondered this for years -- too concerned about appearing idiotic to ask it in this sort of company when my name, face, & rep are attached:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What truly defines the middle class, black or otherwise; is there something unique to the American Black middle-class experience (other than challenging bias regularly)?</p></li>
<li><p>And then what's the difference between middle and upper middle class? </p></li>
<li><p>The difference between upper middle class and upper class?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>And please - I'm not talking about income. Everyone knows that depending on where you live, making more doesn't necessarily mean you're living well. Plus, I know a number of blacks who make significantly less than we do who I'd consider to be more sophisticated (and apparently better off financially)!</p>

<p>I'm asking something more along the lines of: You KNOW you're upper middle class when . . .</p>

<p>Is it a wealth issue (investments, not having to work, owning a summer home)?
Is it a knowledge issue (being well traveled & educated, understanding the languages of politics and finance)?
Is it a social issue (knowing where to find a Jack and Jill org -- and how to join, belonging to a fraternal org)?
Is it an etiquette issue (knowing who to tip & how much, what fork to use)?
Is it a refinement issue (knowing one wine from another, truly enjoying fine art & opera, playing violin, speaking another language fluently)?
Is it a heritage issue (parents, grandparents, etc. all college grads and/or successful business owners or entertainers)?</p>

<p>Failing on almost all counts other than income, I always feel like an imposter. I just don't want my kids to feel that way . . .</p>

<p>Not black, but to me middle class means owning a home, or condo or co-op or at least having the ability to own one. (Exception NYC dwellers.) Having two cars in a two parent household. It's also having some sort of retirement savings, but not enough to feel entirely confident it's really enough and having health insurance, but not being confident that it will cover you in the case of a catastrophic illness.</p>

<p>I think a lot of the other things you list used to belong mostly to the upper class, but have become middle class aspirations - especially those of the upper middle class - those who feel like they are middle class, but by the IRS numbers are relatively rich - say those in the $100,000 to $300,000 range.</p>

<p>Our previous neighborhood was much more of a blue collar neighborhood than our current one. In the old neighborhood we lived next door to a guy who owned his own business (exterminator - very useful!) and the wife had a dog-sitting business. Our other neighbor was a great grandmother whose grandchild the policemen rented an apartment from her. Our exterminator neighbor had a much nicer house than us, with much nicer furniture and cars. We were all middle class, but at the same time there were notable differences due to family backgrounds and educational experience. (BTW I think they knew how to tip and I never noticed any etiquette problems, though they might not know how to seat people for a diplomatic dinner!)</p>

<p>I believe that it is more than wealth (although a threshold income is important to provide all of the other things that go into my equation). As to the upper bound (difference b/t upper middle and upper) the numbers are so small as to approach statistical insignificance so let's not go grey over that distinction.</p>

<p>To me it is an educational/perception issue. It is understanding what tools are necessary to exist both within and outside of the AA community. I bet everyone of us works in an environment where we are one of the few (if not the only) person of color (that might be different in California, though, don't know). Language, to be sure, is the first signal. But it goes deeper than that. Understanding why saving/investments matter (i.e. choosing to save for retirement rather than blow the money on the Escalade with all the options). Most importantly for this discussion board it is the recognition that education is the cornerstone of how our children will be prepared to compete in a world that is every day more complex, more nuanced. </p>

<p>It kills me how many AA parents don't see the importance of preparing their children for college. Although my S accuses me of being a helicopter parent he does admit that he is happy to have me involved (well, most of the time). </p>

<p>SuperMomIAin't you are NOT an imposter. You care enough about your child to see that education is pushed front and center.</p>

<p>might be different in California, though, don't know</p>

<p>Not where I live and my kids are usually the "onlies" as well ( school, competitive soccer, and skiing comes to mind).</p>

<p><em>winks</em> at Mathmom in friendly acknowledgment, while furiously scibbling notes to keep up w/Triguena</p>

<p>--- :note-to-self: SELL ESCALADE. Get stripped down version. -- oh wait. Already HAVE a minivan.</p>

<p>just kiddin. Feelin' a little loopy today after an extraction and much lovely meds . . . </p>

<p>heyyyy! Just noticed;: I got promoted from new member to "Junior Member"! Wonder when that happened and why? . . .</p>

<p>Love to hear more ideas on topic at hand -- also feelin' antsy about impending FAFSA filing and NAT ACH Finalist announcement deadlines. Anybody else waitin' to hear?</p>

<p>Read a couple of days ago in another forum that colleges were scaling back the merit aid effective 2008's entering class. Checked it out in hours of googling and doggoneit -- they were right! Now feeling VERY anxious about D's apps to WUSTL, Brandeis & URoch. </p>

<p>Read yesterday about Harvard's new approach announced in mid-December (Class entering 2008 will pay only 10% of incomes between $120K-$180K)(they DO mean net, not gross, right?). Harvard</a> announces sweeping middle-income initiative — The Harvard University Gazette</p>

<p>Rejoiced at meeting SOMEBODY's idea of "middle income" instead of the o-so-misguided "affluent." Then realized - deadline for applying was 1/1. Yesterday was 1/2. DRAT.</p>

<p>Thought briefly about begging. <strong><em>visions of me in rags on bended knee w/a tin cup at Harvard's admission ofc</em></strong> </p>

<p>Asked D what she thought. She replied (and I quote) "Get a life, mom. I've told you, like, a zillion times: I don't WANNA go to Harvard! They have huge intro classes taught by TAs. Take a break from the college stuff, will you?!" </p>

<p>Appropriately chastened, I now go to sleep off my pain killer-induced euphoria. Maybe Yale will follow Harvard's lead and become more than a pipedream for D (who DID apply there)? . . . Maybe the sun will come out . . . tomorrow . . .</p>

<p>"To be frank, the data (for 2005) is not encouraging"</p>

<p>It's even worse when you look at law school applicant numbers. Extremely depressing.</p>

<p>SuperMom - I can't address any of the African-American issues. But I think I can speak somewhat to the issue of class.</p>

<p>You ask what is middle class, what is upper middle class, what is upper class - other than income. I will just tell you about my family background and then tell you what people in my family think. Please draw your own conclusions.</p>

<p>On my father's side, some Scottish sheepherders and cheesemakers came over to the US some time in the 1600's. The family joined forces with others, eventually some people owning lots of land in Savannah and Florida, others becoming part of the government in Michigan, others remaining in New York and parlaying their support of George Washington into a role as some of the bankers for the US railroads. By the time of Age of Innocence the family fortune was large enough to be discussed in the New York Times - in wedding announcements and articles on world travelers etc. This history includes a long tradition of men matriculating at Harvard.</p>

<p>My mother's family was more modest, and less impressed with themselves if I may say so. But they also came over in the 1600's and landed in the Connecticut river valley and eventually built, owned, and sold, a largish pipe fittings plant. My grandmother and her husband rode out the Depression having gay parties that moved from house to house. My grandmother, and my mother, went to Smith. My aunt to Vassar.</p>

<p>So it would be possible to call my family, in the past, well, let's say 300 years at least, pretty upper class. In terms of their income, their wealth, their educational opportunities, etc.</p>

<p>But by the time my generation rolled around, the family fortunes had dwindled. My father and my mother live, separately now, in very large houses. My brother and sisters and I live in moderate houses, apartments, etc. We have some wealth left, but it ain't too impressive at this point. All of us have to earn a living. None of us make incomes that would put us in the upper class now. In some ways, for the Bay Area, we are only at the high end of the middle class.</p>

<p>But for better or worse, when we gather together, and I say this knowing it reeks of conceit and self-indulgent neurotic conflict and that I may get flamed or whatever but despite all that it is the truth - we feel like the upper class.</p>

<p>And it's about several things. One, education. We are all very highly educated. This trumps all other factors. Two, experience. We have all traveled all over the world, and done so in great luxury and in extreme bare bones. Three, um, how to say this without being such a jerk but I guess I'd say we all feel kind of refined. Meaning we know about what an Impressionist is and why some people would argue that Matisse commercialized the movement and we also know that Bottega Veneta bags are subtle luxury and we've stayed at a Four Seasons but really feel that a boutique is better...</p>

<p>Aargh. Just describing it kind of makes me cringe. Because aesthetically we are such snobs. Artistically too. But personally, well, not. My family is very left of center, all the siblings except me are in the helping professions, and we are very very focused on being as open-minded and unbiased as we can. Except we are at our worst when someone walking by exhibits, gasp, bad taste.</p>

<p>So should you worry when you meet us, or our like, what we think about your class? If you are educated, open-minded, original, we will immediately count you one of us. No one will care who your father is or who your mother is or where you went to school if you exhibit signs of intelligence and the capability for original thought and, well, decent aesthetic taste.</p>

<p>You shouldn't feel like an imposter when you are with my ilk unless you are pretending to be someone you are not. And neither should your children. And, if your children are bright and open, we all hope very much that our kids go to school with them.</p>

<p>I imagine that some people in the upper classes are what my grandmother would have called nouveau riche. My family envies their private jets and Big Fat Fabulous Weddings, at least a little bit. They might want everyone else to feel like imposters. In my family that's just bad manners.</p>

<p>Time to go hide and not show my face on this board for a long time....</p>

<p>I agree w/ most of what Alumother said: education most important; experience/travel important, too. I'd also add refined manners (which Alumother implied) and, increasingly, refined speech. And of course, wealth (as opposed to income) - - the beautiful old houses in Brookline, the majestic shore "cottages" and, more than merely discussing Impressionists, owning a Matisse, or two.</p>

<p>quoting Alumother - Post#136 </p>

<p><you ask="" what="" is="" middle="" class,="" upper="" class="" -="" other="" than="" income.="" i="" will="" just="" tell="" you="" about="" my="" family="" background="" and="" then="" people="" in="" think.="" please="" draw="" your="" own="" conclusions.="" .=""></you></p>

<hr>

<p>. . . and in the hush that followed, the frozen assembled body could hear the song of crickets. 62 miles away.</p>

<p>Not-so-SuperM dimly registers her hindquarters in rather unexpectedly close contact with the chill floor. <em>reaches slowly for her reading glasses knocked a-kilter</em></p>

<p>O.mi.gawd.</p>

<p>Dey's white folks in th'house, and dey's speakin' da TRUTH!</p>

<p><<<hugs>>> ALUmother (But tastefully. And with refinement!)</hugs></p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

<p><em>surreptitiously hiding "Motel 6" Plutonium Member card w/left foot & sliding gaudy knock-off bag behind my back</em></p>

<p>Phew. You have no idea how much I dreaded the response. I am breathing an actual sigh of relief. You are very nice. I think hugs are by their nature refined:). </p>

<p>I bought my D a knock-off bag at the temple of knock-offs, the Xiangyang Market in Shanghai...tell no one.</p>

<p>On further reflection, the discussion of what makes good taste is a whole other thing. For example, if you make it clear you know and don't care it's a gaudy knockoff, because you think it's beautiful and the shade of purple makes such a fabulous and unexpected counterpoint to your um, Doc Martens let's say, and then you are in all black from Target no problem, and well, what I mean to say is that it's not the brand that causes the ugly hackles of upper class taste snobbery to raise. Or the cost. Brand and cost are just proxies for something. Which my silly family defines as "taste". I honestly don't know what the algorithm for taste is, to tell the truth. And honestly, a sense of humor is probably the best guarantee that you will be perceived as having this thing called taste. No matter what you are wearing.</p>

<p>So there you go.</p>

<p>I am off to burn an offering to the gods of broad-mindedness, in everyone.</p>

<p>Alu my friend, come on over to SA and let me buy you a drank :)</p>