<p>amb3r: You don't have to pledge loyalty to your country. I think you should, but I'm not going to make you, and legally no one else can either. I don't think loyalty requires an oath either, but I don't think it hurts. If you choose to be loyal without saying the Pledge, so be it. I just personally think you should.</p>
<p>No, not when 95% (in my school) of the kids have no idea what is coming out of their mouths (it's like a knee jerk reaction - you hear the jingle, you stand up, you mumble the pledge).</p>
<p>I addressed that issue here (Yes, I did add the "and instinctively" just now):
"Obviously some people don't think about what they're saying, but that doesn't mean they're not loyal to the US. Halfheartedly (and instinctively) loyal they may be, but I believe people that truly aren't loyal to the US will have thought about it enough to opt out of the Pledge."</p>
<p>
[quote]
I hate getting up from my seat during the beginning of second period to say the pledge. It makes me move, and I don't like moving in the morning..
<p>Just say it how does it matter? Seriously i don't get it why can't you just pretend you care etc. School is not a place to really display views nad protest etc. If i go somewhere and they ask for a moment of silence or prayer (prayer part is not at school) i just comply, even though i am atheist. Just say the pledge to get them off your back and then go home and do whatever.</p>
<p>For sixteen years I was illegally forced(quite illegally, indeed, and I mean that not of revolution, but that the state of New Jersey was making up rules about schools and homeschooling that made leaving public school neigh impossible. I'm allowed to leave now, but it seems the benefits somehow outweigh the negatives. I think the concept relates back to force, and that question of its limits and existence. If I threaten death, it's certainly force, but when does that end? Er...anyway:) I was illegally forced to attend school and was not once informed of any rights I had(free speech, according to you and many, is not allowed within schools. Religion too. And peititon. And privacy. And choice.</p>
<p>(See, in order: Tinker v. Des Moines, recent case in California over Wiccan being suspended, parents being sued by school in Mass. for starting petition to remove corrupt principal, and I kid you not, school in New Mexico actually put radio ID tags on young adults to know where they were at all times! Or so I think. I can get sources if so needed.)</p>
<p>Although the Supreme Court disagreed, in Tinker:
"[Constitutional] rights do not end at the schoolhouse door."</p>
<p>As I've said, I love the Constitution, and seeing it tarnished in schools annoys me to no end(annoys is not strong enough, but I'm not one to be impassioned.)</p>
<p>I don't find that most Americans are very loyal. Not that it's good or bad, but it seems they are very half-hearted about it, if at all concerned.</p>
<p>That's exactly what I said--they may be halfheartedly loyal, but if they really aren't loyal to the US, I doubt they would say the pledge at all, especially since it's not legally required.</p>
<p>*And honestly, how many teenagers do you know that would love to "overthrow the system"(I especially like the kids who drive BMW's and the like discussing the evils of capitalism. But I digress.)</p>
<p>It seems hypocritical for the same to say the pledge. Yet many do.*</p>
<p>As to that, I can't say I've met any such teenagers, so I can't give you any opinion.</p>
<p>Admittedly, I only know of the same by word of mouth or by some online site, but I assume that they go to public schools and say the pledge. It seems likely. </p>
<p>But I guess I am assuming. Pardon my rather bold assumption. I don't see the BMW kids, but the radical anarchists I recall from middle school and hear about now.</p>
<p>And of course the internet...can be a bastion of knowledge and tremendous stupidity.</p>
<p>Our school recites the pledge over the loudspeaker every morning in homeroom.
I recite the pledge every morning in homeroom. Many people don't. That's fine with me. </p>
<p>if you do not want to recite, then do not recite. if you do, then do so.</p>
<p>The only people in my first period of nearly forty people who recite the pledge are the teacher and the 2 ROTC kids. The rest of us stand lazily with our hands on our hearts hoping they'll hurry it up so we can sit down and finish our math homework. Some people don't even stand, but they usally hide in the back so the teacher won't yell. It's sort of sad, but then again, so is the pledge.</p>
<p>Here's my biased, teenage take on the subject.</p>
<p>The pledge was designed to inspire patriotism, unity, and etcetera. But it is used to shove patriotism down our throats in an way that even the dumbest constituents can understand. Memorize this, recite it until it is a "knee jerk reaction". Now you are a patriot, congratulations. </p>
<p>That's what it boils down to, I think. Pledge = patriotism, according to some.
But "patriotism" is not achieved through sticking a flag magnet to your car and chanting with the rest of the country. Our country was built through rebellion, not conformity. We'd all have British accents and a taste for crumpets if it were otherwise. To be a patriot, you get active in the government and make changes. But instead the people are kept quiet with their yellow ribbons, their flags, and their pledge.</p>
<p>I'll get off my soap box now.... Sorry for the digression and exaggeration.</p>
<p>"I don't find that most Americans are very loyal"</p>
<p>It's hard to be loyal to a country headed on a quick downward spiral.
Obama 08!
/thread</p>
<p>I'm against it for all the reasons given, and also against the "under God" part. It should be completely obvious: we are not a nation under God so why should people have to choose between lying about religion and showing patriotism?</p>
<p>The pledge is not a symbol, just like the flag is not a symbol, and neither is the national anthem. The flag is a piece of cloth. The pledge is a piece of writing. The anthem is a song. That's all.</p>
<p>When you're "loyal" to your "country" you're "loyal" to the politicians in DC that couldn't care less about you. I'm sorry, but screw them. They couldn't care less about you, all they want is your tax money so they can spend it on the charter jet that takes them home. I'll be the first person to throw a politician under the bus if the **** hits the fan.</p>
<p>"When you're "loyal" to your "country" you're "loyal" to the politicians in DC that couldn't care less about you. I'm sorry, but screw them. They couldn't care less about you, all they want is your tax money so they can spend it on the charter jet that takes them home. I'll be the first person to throw a politician under the bus if the *** hits the fan."*</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but this is just ignorance. No, not all politicians are perfect and want the best for the people. Yes, politics are corrupt and always have been. But to think that none care for the state of the world and the people in it is nonsense.
I am not, by any means, proud of my country. But I will not abandon it to the wolves as you seem to want to.</p>
<p>I support the pledge. If your country is to provide ANYTHING for you, it has a right to make sure you're not a treasonous scumbag or willing to hurt the country. The country is a living entity - why would the country be willing to serve you if you do not serve it?</p>
<p>When you say the pledge of allegiance, you are pledging yourself to freedom, unity, and the progressment and glorious advancement of the human race as a whole, and against the forces of tyranny and disunity. The flag IS a symbol, the anthem IS a symbol, for all our glorious country stands for. </p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
The pledge is not a symbol, just like the flag is not a symbol, and neither is the national anthem. The flag is a piece of cloth. The pledge is a piece of writing. The anthem is a song. That's all.</p>
<p>When you're "loyal" to your "country" you're "loyal" to the politicians in DC that couldn't care less about you. I'm sorry, but screw them. They couldn't care less about you, all they want is your tax money so they can spend it on the charter jet that takes them home. I'll be the first person to throw a politician under the bus if the **** hits the fan.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>For you communists who say "lol dc rich boys r corrupt lolz" realize that America has the least corrupt political history in the WORLD. In Africa most of the candidates die before election day because of assasination, and for every real vote, three more are bought. In Europe all there was was cold hearted realpolitik, no true standing for ideals or anything worthy besides who get the money and the power. America is different, if you have a thorough understanding of both American and World History, Philosophy, and politics as a whole. Our system is NOT corrupt, it is the high point of anti-corrupt politics in the world. </p>
<p>At my school we recite the pledge everyday. I am proud of the United States of America, and wish to see nothing but the continual advancement of our nation.</p>
<p>i have nothing at all against the united states pledge.</p>
<p>but what TICKS ME OFF, is the texas pledge. yea thats right texas has its OWN pledge we have to recite after the regular.</p>
<p>I pledge allegiance to thee texas, one state under god, one and indivisible.</p>
<p>I hate stupid texas , the confederacy/south, and conservatives. </p>
<p>and i hate the under god part. im atheist. you cant force people to state under god implying that a god exists. what the hell. its supposed to be illegal. ef the person who made that.</p>
<p>If you multiply the 30 or 45 or whatever seconds it takes to say it by 180 days in a school year... </p>
<p>I'm going to be sad and actually time it. Okay so it was like 13 seconds. That's 2340 seconds a year. Or 39 minutes wasted spent "pledging allegiance"</p>
<p>When you multiply that by 12 years (excluding kindergarten) that's 468 minutes, or 7 hours and 48 minutes.</p>
<p>If I stand up, I stand up. I just stand there, though. I don't put my hand over my heart or anything like that. Occasionally I don't say anything, but I'm usually silent until "and justice for all". That's all I chime in with and then I sit back down. However, if I'm busy doing something else, I don't stop to stand up. If I do stand up and I'm busy, I continue reading or writing whatever I was doing before.</p>
<p>^ That's a loaded question and doesn't deserve an answer.</p>
<p>Thing too is - America wouldn't. The 'geonicide' of the indians wasn't a coordinated government assault either for those who claim it, it was just the will of the settlers to expand westward and they massacred on the way, it wasn't the 'country's' will.</p>
Who are you to judge what America would and wouldn't do in the future? Germany was a peaceful, democratic nation post-WWI. Look what happened to Germany.</p>
<p>Also, if one believes in any concept of the social contract(which makes too much sense not to, in my opinion,) it becomes exceedingly obvious that the will of the people is made manifest by the government, and not the other way around. </p>
<p>Thus, the nation is its people, and if the people do something terrible, it reflects poorly on the whole. Not every individual. Not every region, but as a whole it shows what priorities, at the least, are held. Often much more.</p>
<p>The United States has done good and evil, as have many other nations. More specifically the people of the United States have done good and evil.</p>
<p>I don't understand why the American Indian genocides don't count.</p>
<p>Or, for that matter, the horrible tactics used throughout the Cold War(and I don't just mean morally, practically too.) </p>
<p>I don't mean that the United States is the grand Devil, merely that it is made up of its people, who are largely flawed. Just like everyone else that has ever been, and likely will ever be.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
I don't mean that the United States is the grand Devil, merely that it is made up of its people, who are largely flawed. Just like everyone else that has ever been, and likely will ever be.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>The basic point. America is not perfect but it is not the "devil" either as Mr. Chavez says. Every country has black spots on its history - yet it must be recognized what America has done for the world, and what it will continue to do for the advancement of humankind.</p>
<p>
[QUOTE]
Who are you to judge what America would and wouldn't do in the future? Germany was a peaceful, democratic nation post-WWI. Look what happened to Germany.
[/QUOTE]
</p>
<p>One example. Besides, the question is still loaded. It's like asking "What would you do if America becomes evil?" or "What would you do if all the icecaps melted tommorrow?" Somethings just don't happen, or are preventable.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Also, if one believes in any concept of the social contract(which makes too much sense not to, in my opinion,) it becomes exceedingly obvious that the will of the people is made manifest by the government, and not the other way around.
[/quote]
Of course, in a way the pledge is furthering the social contract because by saying it you are essentially giving explicit consent to be governed by the United States government. However, making it mandatory in any way would kind of defeat this purpose.</p>
<p>You are completely right in saying that the nation is its people. In America, the people are responsible for checking the actions of the government by electing officials, but the government is also responsible for checking the actions of the people to prevent such democratic pitfalls as tyranny of the majority (the federal judiciary is best suited for this. It cannot enforce its decisions, though, and so when its interests conflict with those of the legislature or executive it can be ignored--this can be seen in Worchester v. Georgia, in which, as you might know, President Jackson basically told the Court to go **** itself). But anyway, the point is that just because the people perpetrated the atrocity does not mean that the nation is not accountable for it.</p>