Anyone else not a fan of the pledge of allegiance

<p>I suppose in the vast majority(to my knowledge) of American public schools, the pledge of allegiance is recited pretty much every morning.</p>

<p>I can't stand it. </p>

<p>Not because of the "God," although that is an issue of its own, but indeed a variety of reasons.</p>

<p>The first is the compulsion to say it. It is illegal, by a Supreme Court ruling in Virginia, to force the pledge, or indeed any moment of silence(the latter a Supreme Court case, most recent, from Illinois.) Technically there is no "force," but just today I was yelled at by the principal for not saying the pledge(not at all in a disrespectful way, indeed, it wasn't even being said by anyone(in the entire school!) at the time.) This, in addition to the compulsion by peer pressure, amounts to force indeed.</p>

<p>Which is the most legally bothersome part of my ire, but the second is the lack of heart in saying it.</p>

<p>I know it seems that I'm rabidly anti-American, or some such, for not wanting to say the pledge, but that's not really the case. I am a bit of an internationalist(and a moderate capitalist too, not at all a radical, and certainly not a self-styled communist revolutionary as are so often found in.)</p>

<p>George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, heck, Richard Nixon and Henry Kissenger, are men I in some part admire. Most of all, however, is Madison, who in genius wrote that, my most favorite of all writings, the Constitution, wherin a government was planned for the first time in two and a half millenia.</p>

<p>Which is why I can't stand the lack of feeling and heart in the recitation of the pledge. The nouns, verbs, and all the assorted types of words fall from young citizens' mouths, but they never even register what they're saying. Merely words, not a thought, not a prayer, and especially not an oath. I take my oaths all in sincerity, and mean my words, and such belittling of an ancient style of pact, the spoken oath, is actually rather insulting to me. What good is my word to anyone if it is cheapened as much as it is by the Pledge. "Words without thoughts never to heaven go," or so it is said.</p>

<p>Still, that doesn't really address the pledge itself, merely the recitation of it. I have said that I value my word, and that I am a bit less nationalistic, and a bit capitalistic, but most of all my Constitution. It's for these reasons that I despise the very first clause in the pledge: "I pledge allegiance to the flag." </p>

<p>But I really don't. It's not that there is anything particularly loathsome about the flag, in fact there's not much at all about it. Which is the problem. Before the Republic, and before the Constitution, which is entirely absent, I am made serf to cloth. Cloth not thick enough to keep someone warm, not concerned with law or ethics, and certainly not representative of the Constitution.</p>

<p>Still, if the wording doesn't irk you as it does me, consider the following concept:</p>

<p>If the KKK called itself the Republic of Hate, and utilized the American flag,
"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands."</p>

<p>An extreme and silly example I'm sorry about using, but I think it makes sense. By its word, I am obliged first to save my flag, then my represenatives, the Capitol, and not at all the Constitution. Should The United States become a dictatorship most oppressive, I'd be bound to it by this oath, and I cannot thus accept it as it is.</p>

<p>I love, quite literally, the Constitution. Perhaps by ingrained attitude, or genuine appreciation I do not know, but I do love it. And to put anything else in the government above it is tantamount to blasphemy, to me.</p>

<p>Pardon the harsher language of my writings, it is merely a bit of a reaction to today's affairs. I really do like America, and truly love the Constitution. I can't stand force and foolishness, and it too much embodies both in its current recitations.</p>

<p>I have no issue with it, but we don't ever say it at my school.</p>

<p>I agree with you on a lot of this. We all recite the pledge every day at my school, and most of what I see is kid's racing through it so they can sit down (I do this too, and also the inevitable mouthing if you are too tired to actually say the words). People are allowed not to say the pledge, and more people do that as the years go bye (you can tell which classes are freshmen by how loud their pledges are). I actually think it's a great piece of writing (excepting the Under God being a little discriminatory for a nation supposed to be free and stuff). But having us say it every day and attaching no real meaning to it kind of undervalues it's worth. The pledge is supposed to be a 'proud American' thing, but by forcing it and turning into something to get over with really fast, it kind of ruins the effect.</p>

<p>I agree with you about the lack of heart behind it. However, luckily enough this isn't a problem at my school. Apparently my school used to (before I was there) not say the pledge, and if someone wanted to they could say it themselves before class. Supposedly the state came in and 'kindly asked' that we say it, so now they say it on the announcements every Tuesday. Some kids and teachers stand and say it, some stand and don't say it, some do nothing. I personally do nothing and feel no pressure to do anything else, but I guess I just got lucky enough to go to a school where it really isn't a problem.</p>

<p>Since like you say, there is no "force," why are you complaining about people forcing you to say it? Sure, people may want you to say it, but in the end it is your choice. </p>

<p>Also, you're not pledging to a piece of cloth. You're pledging allegiance to what that piece of cloth stands for--it is a symbol of the United States. It represents the US, so how does it not represent the Constitution? The flag is also not obliging you to save things in any certain order. </p>

<p>Overall, the Pledge is symbolic. It's not meant to be taken literally, as you seem to be doing. I do agree with you, however, that more people need to take it seriously and think about what they're saying. If you blindly recite it for years and years (as is done a lot in my school district), it doesn't mean much of anything.</p>

<p>I agree. It seems totally backwards for a democratic country like the US to pledge to the flag every day. That seems more like something they would force people to do in communist china or cuba... I know there's no force involved, but just that we're supposed to recite the pledge is really strange. I think a lot of people do it unthinkingly because we've been doing it our whole lives, but if you think about it, it's a rather unnerving practice.</p>

<p>I hate getting up from my seat during the beginning of second period to say the pledge. It makes me move, and I don't like moving in the morning..</p>

<p>It's totally backwards to be loyal to your country?? The fact that it is voluntary is what distinguishes it from totalitarian states where such things were/are obligatory. Sure, you are sort of expected to say it and be loyal to the US, but no one is forcing you to.</p>

<p>*"Since like you say, there is no "force," why are you complaining about people forcing you to say it? Sure, people may want you to say it, but in the end it is your choice.</p>

<p>Also, you're not pledging to a piece of cloth. You're pledging allegiance to what that piece of cloth stands for--it is a symbol of the United States. It represents the US, so how does it not represent the Constitution? The flag is also not obliging you to save things in any certain order.</p>

<p>Overall, the Pledge is symbolic. It's not meant to be taken literally, as you seem to be doing. I do agree with you, however, that more people need to take it seriously and think about what they're saying."*</p>

<p>There isn't supposed to be force, but the California courts have already said that "peer pressure" counts as force. Furthermore, as I mentioned, I was yelled at for not saying the pledge(and no, I'm not some rebellious fellow, I've never been in trouble for much of anything. I'm a sensible, orderly person, I'd like to think anyway. It's why it annoyed me so much. </p>

<p>As for the later, it's not merely the literal nature of the pledge(which should be taken into account,) but also the very order of the clauses. Flag first, country second. That the Constitution isn't mentioned and the flag is, quite frankly, annoys me. The flag is irrelevant. The Constitution controls/liberates many of our lives. </p>

<p>The flag never did anything, but that's my point. The literal, and hence figurative, wording of the pledge puts the country's highly undefined spirit prior to the very foundation of the nation. It's rather irksome.</p>

<p>I despise the pledge. No one that I know takes it seriously and no one seems to know/care what they are saying. It's a waste of time.</p>

<p>It's totally backwards to be loyal to your country?? The fact that it is voluntary is what distinguishes it from totalitarian states where such things were/are obligatory. Sure, you are sort of expected to say it and be loyal to the US, but no one is forcing you to.</p>

<p>Pardon my more argumentative spirit, but what about the pledge makes one "loyal?"</p>

<p>I revert to my earlier point, which we seemed to agree on, that most say the words without the heart. Why should that be loyalty, when questioning the de facto, and neigh unrestrained power of schools and administrators is evidently treason?</p>

<p>Er, but again, sorry about he nearly rebellious talk of my post. It's not quite meant to be that way, but it gets my point across. Sorry if it seems like a personal attack, it's really not my intent.</p>

<p>Yes, there may be peer pressure, you may have been yelled at, and it probably shouldn't have happened, but that's not your problem. They can't force you to say the pledge even if they think you should, so it's their problem. I don't like the fact that people won't/don't say the Pledge, but I'm not going to force anyone to say it. </p>

<p>You're still taking the Pledge literally, and that's not how it's intended. The flag is a symbol of everything you're saying isn't mentioned or is mentioned after it. The flag represents our nation, our government, and the Constitution. The flag is a symbol, just as the Pledge is symbolic. If you take it literally, obviously it doesn't make sense.</p>

<p>And why should I pledge loyalty to my country? I'm loyal to my family, do I pledge allegiance to my family every morning? Loyalty does not require daily vocal affirmation by a frankly outdated "pledge of allegiance" in a public institution. And that same daily vocal affirmation does not necessarily entail loyalty to my country. Any connection that carried meaning three hundred years ago is now trite, perhaps even a little offensive. This seems to be a case of "we'll do it this way because we've always been doing it this way", ala - don't shake the boat!</p>

<p>I'm a rather literal person, I'll admit, when it comes to oaths and the like.</p>

<p>But it's the symbolism that I don't like. That is, the flag is not bound to those principles. It can as easily be a representation of mass murder, or racism, or whatever one might like. For poems, for speeches, for anything but an oath, yes.</p>

<p>But an oath appeals to one's core, and each young citizen is meant to have them forced into his or her heart as gospel, and by putting the flag above, I fear we have led to a more unthinking population, more concerned with the most "American" of all things, and not the underlying principles. </p>

<p>Still, I'd argue the consequences of these affairs can very well amount to force. Acting and ordering in an official position is in many ways force. There is a difference between being told to move by a passerby and a police officer. </p>

<p>Force need not be physical. Most of it really isn't. But I suppose any further and we question the very concept of force, is it real or merely a choice?</p>

<p>That could be a fun topic, I'd bet.</p>

<p>Hmmm...normally when one pledges allegiance (or pledges loyalty), that would make them loyal. It's common sense. Obviously some people don't think about what they're saying, but that doesn't mean they're not loyal to the US. Halfheartedly loyal they may be, but I believe people that truly aren't loyal to the US will have thought about it enough to opt out of the Pledge. </p>

<p>I also don't believe that questioning the power of schools and administrators when they try to make you say the Pledge is treason. Trying to force someone to say the pledge is crossing the line, although I believe trying to convince someone is okay.</p>

<p>Don't worry, I'm not taking anything as a personal attack and I hope you don't take mine as such either. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.</p>

<p>My feelings wouldn't change if you removed the word "flag"</p>

<p>"I pledge allegiance to the United States of America. And...."</p>

<p>It's no better.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hmmm...normally when one pledges allegiance (or pledges loyalty), that would make them loyal.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, not when 95% (in my school) of the kids have no idea what is coming out of their mouths (it's like a knee jerk reaction - you hear the jingle, you stand up, you mumble the pledge).</p>

<p>Sure, maybe the Pledge should be literal so more people take it seriously and it means something more to them. I understand what you're saying, but as of right now, the Pledge is symbolic and I don't think it will change too soon. That being said, I don't think we should argue about the literal/symbolic meaning anymore.</p>

<p>Yes, they may be attempting to force you, but legally they can't. As I said before, that's actually their problem. Slap them with a lawsuit if it really annoys you :)</p>

<p>Just say it how does it matter? Seriously i don't get it why can't you just pretend you care etc. School is not a place to really display views nad protest etc. If i go somewhere and they ask for a moment of silence or prayer (prayer part is not at school) i just comply, even though i am atheist. Just say the pledge to get them off your back and then go home and do whatever.</p>

<p>Hmmm...normally when one pledges allegiance (or pledges loyalty), that would make them loyal. It's common sense. Obviously some people don't think about what they're saying, but that doesn't mean they're not loyal to the US. Halfheartedly loyal they may be, but I believe people that truly aren't loyal to the US will have thought about it enough to opt out of the Pledge.</p>

<p>I don't find that most Americans are very loyal. Not that it's good or bad, but it seems they are very half-hearted about it, if at all concerned.</p>

<p>The general culture of the country is self-depreciating. Perhaps that's just my experiences in New Jersey though, but I always feel like somehow I'm supposed to begin by apologizing for being American. </p>

<p>And honestly, how many teenagers do you know that would love to "overthrow the system"(I especially like the kids who drive BMW's and the like discussing the evils of capitalism. But I digress.)</p>

<p>It seems hypocritical for the same to say the pledge. Yet many do.</p>

<p>Either the pledge is worthless, and means whatever it wants, if the flag is meant to be mere metaphor, or it is proper and wholly ignored, in which case it is the former anyway.</p>

<p>It certainly seems devalued, any way one might try to spin it.</p>

<p>*
Don't worry, I'm not taking anything as a personal attack and I hope you don't take mine as such either. You're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine.*</p>

<p>Indeed!</p>