anyone have undergrad department rankings?

<p>Gourman Report undergrad economics ranking:</p>

<p>Gourman Report undergrad
MIT
Chicago
Stanford
Princeton
Harvard
Yale
U Minnesota
U Penn
U Wisc Madison
UC Berkeley
Northwestern
U Rochester
Columbia
UCLA
U Michigan Ann Arbor
Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
Brown
UC San Diego
Duke
Cornell
NYU
UVA
UC Davis
U Washington
U Maryland College Park
Michigan State
UNC Chapel Hill
U Illinois Urbana Champaign
Texas A&M
Boston U
Washington U St Louis
Purdue West Lafayette
USC
U Texas Austin
Vanderbilt
Ohio State
Iowa State
SUNY Stony Brook
U Iowa
U Mass Amherst
UC Santa Barbara
U Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech
Claremont McKenna
Rutgers New Brunswick</p>

<p>LACs for Political Science from Rugg's</p>

<p>Amherst
Brandeis
Centre
Claremont McKenna
Colby
Colgate
Colorado Coll
Connecticut Coll
Dartmouth
Dickinson
Drew
Franklin and Marshall
Grinnell
Hamilton
Kenyon
Macalester
Middlebury
Mount Holyoke
Occidental
Pomona
Rhodes
U Richmond
Smith
U of the South
Swarthmore
Trinity (TX)
Union
Ursinus
Wabash
Washington and Lee
Wellesley
Wesleyan
Whitman
Willamette
Williams</p>

<p>what is the gourman report - and is there a copy of it online?</p>

<p>Gourman report is a really bad ranking, it doesn't have any empirical data aside from the actual rank, little or no explanation to its ranking, etc. etc.</p>

<p>Its pretty useless. </p>

<p>Just go with the best overall undergrad program</p>

<p>I really don't think it's possible to construct a reliable undergraduate program ranking.</p>

<p>Does anyone have departmental rankings for econ?</p>

<p>Found it....never mind lol</p>

<p>collegehelp, we must have different editions of Rugg's. In several posts of yours, such as #22 above but in various other categories you've listed in the past, Oberlin is omitted from your list. Whereas it appears in my edition of Rugg's for that same field.</p>

<p>I'm wondering if you might consider re-checking your source material and updating the lists you keep posting accordingly?</p>

<p>I recall there was at least one field where it was noted in the individual college writeup but then they forgot to list the college for that subject in the summaries in the back; maybe that's the problem.</p>

<p>monydad-
My copy of Rugg's ia a little outdated. I probably should invest in a new one. The only one I own is the one I used several years ago - 2001, the eighteenth edition. I'll buy a new one. Oberlin is not in their Poly Sci list in the 18th edition, which is surprising. Thanks for the suggestion.</p>

<p>thethoughtprocess-
I have posted a lot of evidence and arguments in the past explaining why the Gourman Report is still accurate. Its weakness is that it uses formulas that favor universities, not LACs, but Rugg's favors LACs so I post from both. </p>

<p>Gourman's rankings are consistent with US News, with other posters on CC, and Gourman picks up some little-known gems in some disciplines. I can't fathom why you have such a negative reflex to the Gourman report. The methods are well documented. He doesn't publish the data on which the rankings are based but the results are mostly correct, and that's what matters. If Gourman is inaccurate, lets hear specifically how you disagree with particular rankings. Otherwise, your criticism of Gourman ammounts to no more than an emotional rant.</p>

<p>"I can't fathom why you have such a negative reflex to the Gourman report."</p>

<p>Don't generally speak for others, but maybe it's because they read the many criticisms. cautions from academic circles that are posted about this report.
For example:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.siop.org/tip/backissues/tipjan02/07bedeian.aspx%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.siop.org/tip/backissues/tipjan02/07bedeian.aspx&lt;/a>
<a href="http://chronicle.com/free/v44/i11/11a00101.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/free/v44/i11/11a00101.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/n07u5683507480g4/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.springerlink.com/content/n07u5683507480g4/&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/x41161662x357447/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.springerlink.com/content/x41161662x357447/&lt;/a>
<a href="http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ366255&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&objectId=0900000b8005faab%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/Home.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=RecordDetails&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=EJ366255&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=eric_accno&objectId=0900000b8005faab&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>And then they look at the rankings, and find that according to Mr. Gourman very few liberal arts college departments rank highly in many fields, when common perception is, at the undergraduate level, this is not the case. It appears to some that he is applying grad school criteria to undergrad education without adequately considering other aspects that, to many, make LAC departments actually better at the undergrad level, in a number of cases. If popular perception is to be given credence.</p>

<p>I'm not saying these people are right or wrong. Rugg's doesn't have any great methodology articulated either, as far as I recall;it's really just a survey of student opinions, overlayed with Rugg's opinion on selctivity. Ranking undergrad departments is evidently tricky business. I'm also not saying Gourman is bad, or that it has no methodology.</p>

<p>I'm just saying that, with all that's been published and is out there critical of Gourman, I can't fathom why you can't fathom why a casual reader wouldn't be predisposed to have a negative reflex towards it.</p>

<p>In the newest edition of Rugg's which schools are recommended for itnernational relations/studies?</p>

<p>Don't have newest myself, but here's where you can get it:</p>

<p><a href="http://order.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/wg-order?unique=f6c9e&catalog=ruggs-recommendations&et=453f73a6&basket=b%3D5C3c42bfd1010faa453f6c9eb5b243b42bfd1e4ff5743c8044e1610656b6dc65f%26l%3D%26s%3D8cUfM8aUuA0ONpDu35POqD8.1s0-%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://order.store.yahoo.com/cgi-bin/wg-order?unique=f6c9e&catalog=ruggs-recommendations&et=453f73a6&basket=b%3D5C3c42bfd1010faa453f6c9eb5b243b42bfd1e4ff5743c8044e1610656b6dc65f%26l%3D%26s%3D8cUfM8aUuA0ONpDu35POqD8.1s0-&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>monydad-
Even a casual reader should be able to look at the rankings and see some vailidity. What I can't fathom is why someone would draw a conclusion about such an important source of information without looking more deeply. I've looked at the Gourman rankings more closely than most people, compared them with other data and with the opinions of some of the more experienced posters on CC. They are pretty solid. You might argue about the exact position in the ranking but they are darn close.</p>

<p>I think there is some backlash toward the Gourman rankings from people who like LACs, but the Gourman rankings are still useful and valid information about universities. </p>

<p>I've also read the Gourman criticisms on the web and they are mostly criticisms about methodology and Gourman's supposed secretiveness. But I think some of these critics have not actually read the preface to the Gourman report in which he outlines his method and lists his criteria. I have posted the preface on CC in the past, and I have posted his method and criteria several times. He states that he gave different weight to the criteria depending on the major.</p>

<p>I have heard the criticism that you can't accurately distinguish schools to the tenth decimal place. Gourman started out in the 1960s with an 800 point scale, like the SATs, but he boiled it down to a 5-point index. Questions have also been raised by the fact that there are no ties but, there actually are ties (at least one that I saw). Most object to the fact that the data are not available to the public. But, this is the way Gourman made his living. I come back to the point that the results can be validated, so whatever the method was and whatever the data were the outcome made sense. I have heard the criticism that they are outdated but the quality of academic programs changes very slowly, and besides, the Gourmans rankings from 10 years ago fundamentally agree with with comparable current rankings.</p>

<p>The Gourmans ranking correlate with other current rankings (when comparable rankings are available). Gourman correctly lists some high quality programs that are not public knowledge. I have even discovered that some critics of Gourman on CC actually agree closely with Gourman when you look at their posts.</p>

<p>No ranking is absolute or perfect but there is tremendous value for students who are starting their search. It gives them a starting point. It would be a shame to dismiss the Gourman rankings, which are still the best source for undergraduate rankings by department.</p>

<p>I have also heard the criticism that you can't distinguish the quality of undergraduate colleges at the program level. Some say that you should just pick your school based on overall reputation. This is simply not true. Departments within schools are not uniform in quality. Those who know a discipline best will tell you that some departments are stronger than others at every school. In fact, there is variability in quality even within departments between sub-specialties.</p>

<p>I don't want to ignore the fallibilities of the Gourman report or exaggerate its accuracy but I try to shed some light on the value of these rankings when I can and try to counteract the stubborn bias against the Gourman rankings, which stems from the blind acceptance of what critics have said in the past.</p>

<p>My point was that, by this time, shock is hardly the appropriate response when yet another person expresses some skepticism about Gourman. These reactions have been out there for years now, and obviously people are influenced by these comments , as well as their own reading of it and some of the results that they may find suspect. There should be nothing about this difficult to fathom. Disagree, that's another thing.</p>

<p>As for looking deeper, some of the criticisms come from people actually in the relevant fields allegedly being ranked. Not everyone who looks deeper shares your conclusion. Plus there's a limit as to how deep one can actually look.</p>

<p>As to its actual merits, I continue to express no opinion, as per post #29.
However thethoughtprocess has expressed an opinion on that point.</p>

<p>I do not agree that mere correlation with other rankings means that a particular ranking has any value itself. I can give you a ranking of several programs off the top of my head that would also correlate quite closely I believe. That doesn't mean anyone should listen to me, as if my opinion had any special validity.</p>

<p>Rankings are more or less useless. They are often completely inaccurate, too, e.g., in the case of when the resources of a "near eastern studies" department is not included in a ranking of "middle eastern studies" department, or when a "paleontology" department is not included within the resources of a geology department. Also, rankings often are severely biased towards larger programs, if only for the reason that their sheer size causes people to be slightly more aware of them. But that's wrong if you consider, for example, that the vast majority of tenured faculty in particular areas are the products of just a few small schools, or that, for example, Yale alumni are over 200 times more likely to become Rhodes Scholars than the average college graduate, or that UChicago, Swarthmore and Yale alumni are in some cases literally dozens of times more likely to receive Ph.D.'s from top graduate programs than their counterparts who graduate from other so-called "top-20" universities.</p>

<p>Anyhow, the best way to get a sense of the best departments is to actually go and visit your choices and talk to students and professors there. Figure out the school's success rate at sending its student on to the very top graduate programs or placing them in prestigious positions. Look at the selectivity of the school, too - is it a place people are clamoring to get into?</p>

<p>If you are using rankings, you need to basically be a professor of education who looks at these kinds of things in much more detail and adjusts them for all different kinds of variables.</p>

<p>The fact Yale takes the best of the best might have a little to do with their future success. Duh. As the president of Harvard said, " we take the best and try not to ruin them".</p>

<p>could someone tell me rugg's reccs for poli sci and french
also, could someone steer me to an lac or lac-like school that would be good for both- please don't tell me some nearly impossible school.
thanks for all your help.</p>

<p>post #22 has the Rugg's poli sci</p>

<p>I am not sure Rugg's has a separate list for french</p>

<p>It has to do with a lot more than just that, barrons.</p>

<p>Yes, they have people dedicated to making sure people are nominated and put together proper applications. Many sane people want nothing to do with getting a PhD and prefer law, business, and medical schools. As a matter of fact I think getting a PhD shows some odd character traits and perhaps a fear of getting out into the "real" world. In no way does it prove academic superiority.</p>

<p>Not everyone, in fact I would be curious what the % is or if it could be found, gets a PhD immediately after undergrad; and therefore, do get into the 'real' world first.</p>