AP = college work? Harvard says NO

Parents Forum
1

<p>*Survey of 18,000 students nationwide finds AP classes not comparable to college work *</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Our survey, the largest ever of its type, suggests that AP courses do not contribute substantially to student success in college," says Sadler, the Frances W. Wright Senior Lecturer in the Department of Astronomy.</p>

<p>A survey of 18,000 college students enrolled in introductory biology, chemistry, and physics has found little evidence that high school Advanced Placement (AP) courses significantly boost college performance in the sciences. The study by researchers at Harvard University and the University of Virginia (UVA) found the best predictors of success in college science courses to be high school classes that foster mathematical fluency, value depth over breadth, and feature certain types of laboratory work. </p>

<p>Mathematical fluency is the single best predictor of college performance in biology, chemistry, and physics, giving a strong advantage to students whose high school science courses integrate mathematics. "Draining the math out of high school coursework does students a disservice," Sadler says. "Much of college biology, chemistry, and physics are taught using the language of math, so students without fluency quickly become lost." </p>

<p>Sadler and Tai's four-year study was funded by the National Science Foundation, the National Institutes of Health, and the U.S. Department of Education. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/02.23/05-ap.html%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D"&gt;http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/02.23/05-ap.html

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<p>What a surprise!</p>

2

<p>This month, College Board officials released the latest data on the Advanced Placement program, noting record increases in the numbers of students taking AP courses and scoring well enough on the exams to get college credit. The AP program saves students “time and tuition,” said Gaston Caperton, president of the College Board.
<a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/08/ap%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/08/ap&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Bush administration is climbing on the AP bandwagon as well, calling for more students to take the courses in high school.
<a href="http://www.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/competitiveness/expanding-apip.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ed.gov/about/inits/ed/competitiveness/expanding-apip.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Jennifer Topiel, executive director of public affairs for the College Board, questioned the size of the study, noting that the 18,000 students included many who had never taken an AP course and that many of those who had didn’t receive high scores. She said that College Board data paint a different picture, in which students who score well on AP exams do well not only in introductory courses, but for those who place out of intro courses, in the more advanced classes. “There’s a lot of research that shows the exact opposite of what they are saying,” Topiel said.</p>

<p>Sadler said, however, defended his study. He said that if students with 4’s and 5’s on the AP exam were not acing introductory courses, there was no reason to think they would be doing better in more advanced courses.</p>

<p>While his research challenges some conventional wisdom about AP courses, Sadler said that he has been struck by who has not been surprised at all by the results: professors who teach science. “They’ve known this for a long time,” Sadler says, and if they had their way, they wouldn’t award credit for AP (or would do so much more minimally). “They just haven’t had the data.”</p>

<p>Complete article at
<a href="http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/20/ap%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://insidehighered.com/news/2006/02/20/ap&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

3

<p>Speaking as a student who took many AP courses in high school, these courses do not, from a purely qualitative standpoint, come anywhere close to the depth and breadth of my college courses. The only one that I think was even remotely comparable to any of my college courses was AP Bio - and that was because my teacher insisted on teaching out of the Campbell book (... the lower-track bio classes at my school use one of the books often used for AP. just thought that was interesting) and she went beyond the AP syllabus in several areas.</p>

<p>I thought my AP calculus class was utter crap (especially after taking multivariable through EPGY), but I think I found the greatest failing in my history classes. A high school survey course, no matter whether it's AP or what textbook is used etc., cannot come anywhere close to the highly focused teaching in a college class. Consider for example the difference between spending a semester surveying all of American history through 1850 vs. spending a semester focusing entirely on the civil war. AP History courses do not in my experience teach students how to do research, do not teach them how to write convincing analytical essays, and focus on learning facts and timelines rather than getting into the material in depth and learning to think about it instead of parroting it back. I had a fantastic AP US teacher, for the record - but between that class and my college history courses, there's absolutely no comparison.</p>

<p>I suppose all I'm trying to say is that the statistics aren't the whole picture...</p>

4

<p>Not surprising. Some elite schools do not give credit at all for AP 4's and 5's, some limit it to 5's only, and may limit the number of hours they will give.</p>

5

<p>This would be hard to measure. The people who took AP courses got higher grades in their introductory college courses than those who did not. Their grades in the college course also went up as their AP scores went up- as you would expect. The argument seems to be that they did not go up as much as they should have, if the students had already mastered the material.</p>

<p>however, this does not account for other differences: the inherent error in the college grades; the fact that these reflect other factors, for example turning your lab reports in on time, which has nothing to do with how well you know the material; the fact that students with AP's may load up more or harder courses, figuring the intro course should be easy since they have an AP under their belts; the possibility that they were bored doing the AP course over again. But I find it hard to ignore a mean of 80 for students who had not taken an AP vs 90 for those who had, even if you accept the estimate that the AP is responsible for only half the difference.</p>

6

<p>I took AP English Lit and Composition as a HS junior and got 5's on both AP English exams (I self-studied- sort of- for the English Lang test). My senior year, I took two half-semester, introductory English classes in Poetry and Fiction at a local college (Baldwin-Wallace College). Even though these were the easiest college English classes I could have taken, they went far beyond my AP class in terms of depth, amount of reading/work demanded, and the maturity level of subjects discussed. I also had to write two 3-5 page papers for each class, and take a final essay exam for one of them, whereas in my AP class, we spent so much time prepping and writing short test-style essays that I got little experience in writing papers. AP Lit prepared me well to take college English, but in no way did it replace those classes. In fact, when I go off to college next year, I plan to take this type of class again, just to make sure I have a handle on it.</p>

7

<p>gonewithfergus:</p>

<p>I completely agree with you. I have the same thing with my AP English Lit. class where all we're going is prepping for timed essay tests. 40 minute essays written based on quality when one doesn't even have enough time to think properly. It's not a test on ability, it's a test of endurance: who can withstand the pressure and write a pseudo-proper essay. It reminds me more of that scene in GI Jane when all the grunts are forced into that warm room with terrible lighting conducive to sleeping rather than writing, and forced to write a paper for a period of time. </p>

<p>I've been completely mental these past few weeks because I was accepted to U of Chicago and I am thinking I'm not prepared. But then again, who really is if all anyone is taking is AP classes? We've read books and discussed them, but we're on one of those "time is of the essence" schedules where we have to get this book done so we can start this one so we can study this poet so we can write this and that. We haven't had to do a take-home writing assignment at all. I'm wondering how you're supposed to write a 5-page paper properly and how the college is going to want it formatted. My h.s. didn't teach "writing papers" in the best way. They'd give you a day or two, maybe three, to write a quick paper about whatever with no emphasis on format or anything. Or, you'd get that teacher who announces RESEARCH PAPER as a way of striking fear in everyone, because it normally meant two months of research, thesis generating, "idea webbing", rough drafts, notecards, final drafts, and MLA handbook referencing. It was always a joke and took so horribly long. </p>

<p>I prefer reading a bunch of books, sitting round a table talking about what happened in them and what it all means, writing interps and assessments of the book (all of which you can find on HP discussion forums), and maybe writing something about the book as a whole where you actually have time to look at the book and write a proper paper. Same goes with history. As for math, teach me how to do the problem, then give me a bunch of problems to do (all of which have been taught, because you know in h.s. the teacher teaches one version then gives you problems from the book that make no sense compared to what was taught). In science and foreign language, I'll just be happy to be done with them. I just hate courses where you are stuck memorizing facts or having to "be quick" with answers. I think learning is more about having a general good idea of everything and not be a fool with things. </p>

<p>I can't stand people who act the fool with things. Like the fruit who buries their nose in a book or paper and doesn't hear anything else going on round them. Or when the teacher is getting ready to explain a paper, and they say, Look at this page now because we're going to go over these quotes, and the fool says, What are we doing? I hate that. Or, say you are at a school event like a sporting event and you're in charge of handling the money with another person, and this fool and you have to take the box of money to a safe location like the room of the teacher. So this fool, upon seeing that the door of the room is locked, decides they're going to go all the way back to the gym to get the teacher from what they're doing to come all the way back and open their door. But guess what, there is a janitor standing right there next to us. I point out to the fool that we can ask the janitor to open the door. The fool responds with, Can they do that? Duh! But yet this fool is the math whiz of our year! Ha! Sorry, I get tempestuous regarding this particular person that I am talking about. These were real examples of someone I know.</p>

8

<p>the problem with this 'study' is that it did NOT track the students who earned a high grade on the AP course and then went directly into a more advanced course in that subject. Perhaps these students were high 5's, and were able to handle to next level course, but, we'll never know since they were not included in the study.</p>

<p>The authors just assume that anyone who recieves a 5 should ace the corresponding introductory college course....perhaps the ones they studied were low 5s, which, not surprisingly, corresponds to a ~90.</p>

<p>Incidentally, it would be extremely interesting to segment those students at schools known for grade-inflation compare their grades...perhaps Professor Sadler would like to share his school's experience. :)</p>

9

<p>I still believe the key is:</p>

<p>"Sadler said that he has been struck by who has not been surprised at all by the results: professors who teach science. “They’ve known this for a long time,” Sadler says, and if they had their way, they wouldn’t award credit for AP (or would do so much more minimally)."</p>

<p>The question is why do schools NOT listen and nip this boondoggle in the butt by limiting the credits to ... zero!</p>

10

<p>My d. is taking "ah-hem" World History the local high school. It is the best high school in the area. If I were to look at the material objectively, I'd say it warrants maybe a 6th or 7th grade designation.</p>

<p>The only other option that she is offered for American History is the AP course. Which means that she will spend most of the year reading little, and writing little two-page essays. Nothing wrong in that, I guess, but I continually wonder to what degree even having AP courses has impoverished the curriculum.</p>

<p>I frankly don't care one whit whether colleges offer credit for this stuff at all (I imagine there are 2,500 colleges that will, and more!) My question is why we don't care more about the kids are learning NOW.</p>

11

<p>Well, my D's AP Euro class at our local public high school was excellent -- LOTS of reading of original sources, the teacher dedicated considerable class time to enrichment -- the art (showing slides) and music (class time listening to pieces) of the time periods studied, etc. I was impressed that it really was about the learning, not JUST prepping for the exam, although almost all the kids in this teacher's classes scored 5's and 4's when the exam results came in. It was also lots of work for my D -- I recall her on occasion going to bed tired but then setting her alarm for 2 or 3 a.m. to get up and crack the AP Euro again.</p>

<p>There may be an AP curriculum, but no teacher need be limited by it.</p>

<p>The only complaint I had at the time was that the AP classes at this school were not required to do a research paper. I believe that has now changed (Did they listen to me?) as my son will be expected to do a research paper in his AP class next year. </p>

<p>My D got a year's credit at Smith for her AP coursework. It enabled her to take a semester's leave and do her own junior year experience abroad where she worked -- and we did not have to pay any tuition. Yet she will still graduate with her class. So it worked great for us.</p>

12

<p>This study by Sadler follows on an earlier study by some Harvard departments which led Harvard to give credit only for scores of 5 on AP-exams. The findings of the earlier study were that students who had received scores of 4 on their AP tests did less well in advanced courses than students who had taken the introductory courses in the same subbject at Harvard. I am not clear whether they did less well than students who had received a grade of B (the equvalent of a score of 4) or as well.</p>

<p>Anyway, my support for AP classes in high school stems from the knowledge that they are the most challenging classes available there and that there is a very significant difference between the level of difficulty of AP classes and non-AP classes. Unfortunately, the teach to the test mentality of most AP teachers means that students learn to write short essays but not longer papers requiring research and sustained argumentation; that the students often are taught to remember facts but not necessarily to participate in scholarly discussions or engage critically with the texts. </p>

<p>As for math/science, the National Research Council published a report several years ago that is still worth reading. I believe it is available online.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Many high school and college educators surveyed by Sadler and Tai cited the value of AP courses, widely regarded as the most rigorous offered in most high schools. But college students in this study who had taken AP science courses, scored a 5 on the exam, and then took an introductory college course in the same discipline averaged a college grade of only 90, even after the added study at the college level. Students with an AP score of 4 averaged 87 in freshman science courses in the same subject; students who scored a 3 averaged 84; and students who took a non-AP high school honors course averaged 82. Sadler and Tai attributed roughly half the difference between these grades and the mean college grade of 80 to background variables unrelated to taking an AP course.

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<p>Geesh. Hopefully this is an example of the press release author mangling the study. Otherwise, I'm concerned about the scholarship.</p>

<p>As quoted, the study doesn't show diddly about the AP courses. To draw a valid conclusion, you'd need to compare students who had an AP course to students who had an intro college course. </p>

<p>As afan pointed out already, the data does show that AP grades correlate with college grades in the same subject. So there's got to be more to the story than is reported here.</p>

14

<p>mini's #10,"My question is why we don't care more about the kids are learning NOW."</p>

<p>What I remember in senior in HS was 1) Girls are very soft. 2) TET, 3) different types of weeds 4)Enuf gas (& money) in the tank even when its a quarter a gallon. I would guess that what the kids are learning in HS today, is greater in depth but still essentially the same what I learned, abet slightly adjusted for the times.</p>

15

<p>At Harvard, by contrast, “AP Biology does not substitute for any concentration requirement in biology”—including the requirement that concentrators must take an introductory course, according to the undergraduate student handbook. Freshmen who scored 4 or 5 on the AP exam in chemistry can enroll in a sophomore level Chemistry Department course, according to the undergraduate course catalogue. </p>

<p>But in the Physics Department, a score of 5 on the mechanics section of the AP Physics C exam is needed to place into sophomore-level Physics 16, according to the course catalogue. </p>

<p>Gordon McKay Professor of Applied Physics Eric Mazur, who served on the development committee for AP Physics from 1995-2000, said that the correlation between AP science exam scores and performance in college is weak. </p>

<p>“In my class, I have had students with absolutely no physics background do better than people who make a 5 on the AP exam,” Mazur, who co-teaches the Physics Department’s introductory-level year-long sequence, said. </p>

<p>Mazur said that AP exams “do a disservice to higher education.” </p>

<p>“They are geared as a model that rewards ‘plug and chuck’ and memorization,” Mazur said. “You look at a problem and say what equation should be used without understanding.” </p>

<p>And Higgins Professor of Biology Daniel L. Hartl, who co-teaches the spring semester course in the year-long introductory Life Sciences sequence, wrote in an e-mail, “From what my students know, and don’t know, I can only infer that most AP biology courses do not have the depth or rigor to justify testing out of a college course.” </p>

<p>The study’s authors, Sadler and University of Virginia Assistant Professor of Science Education Robert H. Tai, presented their findings on Feb. 17 at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science in St. Louis. </p>

<p>*According to Sadler, the recent findings—which are not yet published—are a portion of a larger ongoing study. * </p>

<p>The study—which included 500 students who had taken AP exams—found that their grades were not significantly different from those of students who had not taken the advanced courses previously, Sadler said. </p>

<p>Students who bypass the introductory level courses with AP scores eventually perform worse in higher level courses, Sadler said, citing additional findings of the study. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511595%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=511595&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

16

<p>All they had to do was poll the kids. So many AP kids coast through easily. At least, that's the impression that I have from talking to many of them.</p>

<p>Also though, does this only relate to the sciences? What about the liberal arts subjects? Is the AP writing up to par with what top colleges want?</p>

<p>I would be very interested if they did a study on the IB exams, to see how those worked out in comparison. My IB chem class went way way way beyond college Chem 1. IB is also less on the memorizing.</p>

<p>I also think bluebayou brought up a good point about the different grading policies at different schools.</p>

17

<p>Some posters have brought up the issue of college grading. The smaller Harvard study is interesting because it compares students at Harvard itself, so grading is fairly consistent (taking into account different profs' own inconsistencies). Thus it does not matter whether there is grade inflation at Harvard or not.</p>

<p>But posters have not taken into account AP classes own grading inconsistencies and the fact that some students take the exams without taking the classes. In some schools, it is taken for granted that students in AP classes "deserve" to have high grades, whether officially weighted or unweighted. This in itself leads to significant grade inflation. </p>

<p>AP exams themselves can be scored in a rather deceptive way as answering only 65% of the questions correctly can earn a 5. This should be compared with college exams. From my S's experience, I do not think that college exams have such a very generous curve. He took introductory biology in college( while in high school) and the AP-Biology exam, using the same textbook as his schoolmates were using for their AP-Biology class. The AP-exam took place within a week of the college final. College students spent approximately 1/3 less time in class than did the high school students. The college class graded more toughly than the AP-Biology class or exam. Just one data point, but an interesting one.</p>

18

<p>Because of our district's philosophy, its AP offerings are every bit as difficult as most college intro courses. Because of this only jrs and srs are able to enroll and they my take no more than 3 AP courses per year. In APUSH for instance, students are assigned summer reading from an approved list, are assigned 2 primary/2 supplemental reading texts, must do 4 papers and complete a major research paper using original source material. Our son invistigated slave holdings in our county in the early 19th century using church and county burial records. Most students agree that AP calc is more difficult that almost any college intro calc class they will encounter. And few earn a A in that AP class(about 2/25 in my son's Calc A/B class. Most C students score 4 or 5 on the AP exam. </p>

<p>The major difference is the pace. AP courses are taught over an entire year while the equivelent college course is completed in 15 weeks. A big difference.</p>

<p>I know our district's philosophy is different from many if not most. But the students AND parents know what they are in for so there are few complaints and those that do complain are rarely tolerated. But the classes are filled with students anxious to take on the challenge and staffed by experienced teachers who love the opportunity to teach them.</p>

19

<p>I am more in support of posts #8, 12, and 13 than the "survey of 10,000 students." I can tell you that that survey would not have included my D's school. Some points:</p>

<p>(a) AP "then" vs. AP now</p>

<p>AP at my own rigorous, private high school was rare and selective. Students who had proven themselves in the previous <em>3</em> years of h.s., were sometimes offered <em>one</em> course. (Very few were available, period.) In my sr. yr. there was one AP Eng. It was not at all what the current AP courses are like: no survey, no volume of material to master. Ours was an in-depth, college-level course on Jane Austen. It was taught by someone who was both a high school & college instructor, earning her Ph.D. The course was a close study of Jane Austen. The standards of writing, analysis, & class discussion/preparation were college-level, not h.school. And on my transcript I was granted <em>college</em> credit, as well I should have.</p>

<p>(b) AP today vs. AP today.</p>

<p>It obviously varies by h.school; others have noted that. At my D's high school, it is hard to qualify. One first has to qualify for Honors, which is not easy: that is usually granted via testing & previous coursework. Not even everyone who earns an A in Honors Eng. in freshman yr. will be granted Honors Eng. status for soph. yr.: the Frosh teacher has to see that the student has really "gotten" it; there's a gradation involved: Soph Hon. Eng. is more demanding than Fresh. Hon. Eng. </p>

<p>All of the Honors courses -- all subjects -- are rigorous. To get a B is a significant challenge. One can advance to the AP version in a following yr. only with a very high B, & preferably an A- minimum. My younger D did not advance to the AP version of one of the sciences, because she got a low grade on <em>one</em> test in a <em>different</em> science, lowering her A- in that class to a B-. And I'm in support of the school's choice in that regard.</p>

<p>Most of the AP courses are heavily supplemented with projects & papers. Over & over it's been shown that the students who excel in the non-AP coursework at that school similarly excel in the AP coursework, AND VICE-VERSA. That's the coursework itself, evidenced by a grade. When it comes to the AP exams themselves, the exam results have proven to correlate with the quality of that student's coursework: only the ones who showed mastery in class -- by their work & thus their grade -- "5'ed" the exam.</p>

20

<p>
[quote]
The major difference is the pace. AP courses are taught over an entire year while the equivelent college course is completed in 15 weeks. A big difference.

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</p>

<p>This may be true at some colleges, but not the better ones. The bigger difference is not the pace. It is thought and analysis. Here's an example from U. Chi, a course that meets Gen Ed requirements:</p>

<p>
[quote]
13500-13600-13700. America in Western Civilization I, II, III
This sequence meets the general education requirement in civilization studies. This sequence uses the American historical experience, set within the context of Western civilization, to (1) introduce students to the principles of historical thought, (2) probe the ways political and social theory emerge within specific historical contexts, and (3) explore some of the major issues and trends in American historical development. This sequence is not a general survey of American history...
13700. The third quarter takes the society and nation thus created and focuses on the transformations produced by immigration, industrial re-organization, and the expansion of state power. Subunits focus on the definitions of Americanism and social order in a multicultural society; Taylorism and social engineering; culture in the shadow of war; the politics of race, ethnicity, and gender; and the rise of new social movements.

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<p>Note that this is part of an introductory sequence for general education, and note the statement "This sequence is not a general survey of American history". When my D took this course, she had several long papers due every quarter, where she was expected to analyze the topic. For instance, we had a lot of discussion regarding Taylorism - not what it is, but what its IMPACT is.</p>

<p>The sad fact is that a lot of college students start out thinking college courses are a lot like HS courses. Then they discover that just regurgitating memorized material is good for a C (OK, at Harvard, that's a B+). You wanna do better? Start thinking and analyzing.</p>