<p>calc man. ap stats is ALL calculator. calculus REALLY helps for college physics.</p>
<p>AdOfficer,
My own daughter will be taking, yes, an even more challenging program next year, her Sr. yr, & will also explain on her apps the poor prep for calc & lack of pre-calc. I'm glad that colleges are beginning to recognize such math program deficits, & I'm sorry that these occasions are not more rare, actually. I think it speaks to the unevenness of math teaching & curricula in U.S. secondary education; that gap needs to be closed if the country is to remain technologically competitive, globally. </p>
<p>But the other point I would still like to reframe, more pointedly than I stated it previously. </p>
<p>However many advanced math courses are offered and taken in "demanding" high schools these days, it is evident to me from many of the debates on CC, that the same students so capable in anaytical math are apparently not so capable in other kinds of analyses. There is a failure to make connections & differentiations across <em>concepts</em>, to express those understandings in an articulate manner & within an intellectual framework. A handful of students have demonstrated the opposite on CC, & those who do show a great deal of intellectual maturity, as well as enough discipline to separate emotional arguments from intellectual arguments; possibly many others are also quite articulate, but do not post, or use CC mainly for other purposes than debates over issues.</p>
<p>It is a deficit which carries over into classrooms where I teach specialized subjects, including among upper middle class students. Further, while many of these students are actually more aware of global events & global cultures than students of previous decades, I continue to lament the inadequate understanding of U.S. History and U.S. values which are evident in the majority of CC posts which deal with contemporary issues. </p>
<p>Perhaps admissions committees would do well to look at these <em>other</em> deficits, as well -- not just as reflected in their admissions decisions, but in their recommendations to secondary institutions. The future may be in technology, but the country will continue to need teachers, professors, researchers, public policy leaders, lawyers, journalists, and writers. Such people need to be well anchored in our country's history, not to mention well anchored in the art of argument. I'm glad that my daughter's own school continues to train students in this, but possibly some of the otherwise prominent schools are lacking in these equally important areas.</p>
<p>^^^^^
Epiph - This is a wonderfully important point - one which I stress in committee all the time to colleagues. I cannot count the number of times I have gotten in to arguments with colleagues over applicants who are extremely talented in math and science but are unable to make connections across disciplines, think critically in different areas, analyze in different ways in different subjects, or think conceptually in the arts and humanities. Yes, technology and science are important, but the skills one gains from becoming strong in the arts, humanities, social sciences, and writing are also terribly important. I truly believe in the power of history and am amazed by the lack of interest many students have for understanding the social, economic, cultural histories of whatever it is they are talking about; this is evident by many of the comments made here on CC which can be, well, to be blunt, ignorant.</p>
<p>Best of luck to your daughter!</p>
<p>Ad Officer, I am curious: Do you know if the students who are struggling in calc or chose not to take it were in integrated math (rather than the traditional alg.1/geom/alg. 2 sequence)? My friend teaches community college chem & has been appalled at the lack of algebra skill --- she & her colleagues believe the integrated math prevelant in our area schools is to blame. Kids had A's in math & thought they were competent, but they are lacking basic skills. She laments that she cannot teach them what they should already know! D had first-year high school integrated math in 8th grade. She scored in the 99th percentile in math on her Catholic school placement test (STS) for high school. When she took the placement test that her new school required in addition to the STS, she did not demonstrate the algebra competence to place out of alg. 1. </p>
<p>I suspect that many students who have trouble with higher-level math have been short-changed by their math programs.</p>
<p>Ephany:</p>
<p>Great post, you made some points so eloquently that I was trying to, but alas, I was not able to.</p>
<p>To another poster- yes AP Calc is great for college physics, but not every single college student is taking Physics. My D will probablly be taking a different kind of science- something valuable to HER education </p>
<p>It is better as a society that variety is taught, along with depth, communications skills, writing (how many gazillions of dollars are made writing books to explain poor techinical manuals?).</p>
<p>I am not against Calc, I think it is important to have at least a year of it, HOWEVER, I think for many kids, especially those not going into technology, science, medicine, that perhaps another kind of course can be created that would teach some of the same themes- critical thinking, logic, planning, analysis, etc.</p>
<p>When I look at what my D has learned, what she has gained from her path of study I am grateful. So she took only three years of Spanish (she was terrible at it), her economics class will serve her and society and her education better. So she didn't take two years of calculus, her year of AP Stats was better for HER.</p>
<p>Last night my sophmore daughter was having fun working some of the questions in the LSAT book. Afterwards, we did IQ questions, logic puzzles, and then played with photoshop. That was a better use of the older daughter's time than trying to solve a variable or whatever for a class she hates- a second year of Calc.</p>
<p>When I see so many kids struggling with Calc, it is not weak academic kids, nor slackers, nor "dummies', but often poor teachers who are teaching a very difficult course that they may not be prepared to teach, that are causing the problems.</p>
<p>If we are going to insist that students take Calc for two years in HS, then the colleges need to step up and give some additional training, for free, to those teachers, to do nothing and expect students to shine is unfair. Obviouslly this course needs to be taught by someone who really CAN TEACH. </p>
<p>I am not blaming the teachers, who I know are doing their darndest, but a system that changed before people were trained to keep up.</p>
<p>My youngest D will probably do Calc for 2 years, but if she chooses to take AP Stats, will if that is not good enough for a particular college, and the college doens't have an imagination to see that this applicant has a well rounded and deep and rigorous HS transcript with great grades, then it is not the school for her. </p>
<p>Who wants to go to a school that wants cookie cutter kids that aren't willing to go, I don't have to follow a path that is unimaginative and does not serve my goals...</p>
<p>kelsmom...</p>
<p>the point you raise is also very important and highlights a great problem facing education today in this country - the disconnect that exists between what is required for high school graduation and what is required for college-level studies. if you look at a community college or even 4-year state and private institutions, you'll be shocked to see the number of "remedial" courses that are offered. why are they offered? because students are graduating from high school with lfewer competencies than they had a generation ago...remember when having your high school diploma meant something? today, high school curriculums and graduation requirements are being watered down to improve graduation rates while leaving students less and less prepared for higher education. </p>
<p>the city university of new york had a huge problem with this a few years back...they were admitting A LOT of students from new york high schools who they thought were academically prepared because they were graduating from high school with certain averages. cuny required three years of mathematics, yet the curriculums were so watered down in the high schools that students were graduating with three years of high school integrated math (the state requirement for graduation) that only taught them through algebra 1 or less. this was not indicated on the students' transcripts - it was assumed that "integrated math 3" was what it always had been - a study of advanced geometry and algebra and an intro to precalculus. students who failed a math course in one year but then repeated it and passed it in another year were getting credit for taking two years of math; others were getting credit for remedial courses - which were also labeled "integrated" - and even business and consumer math classes, even though they could not perform simple, basic algebraic equations, let alone understand geometry, algebra II, trig, precalculus, or calculus and stats. because cuny was mostly open-enrollment and a public city school, it had to admit these students...it also had to provide them with the education their high schools had not before these students could even start getting credits that would count towards their college degrees. similar things have happened in california, florida, ohio, texas, michigan, and other states...this is also one of the reasons california started to standardize course requirements for admission to their public colleges and universities.</p>
<p>if intergrated math curriculums cover what they are supposed to, they are great. however, because these curricula can be complicated to coordinate and teach to students with different levels of math experience and competencies, they can also be quite ineffective pedagologically.</p>
<p>math, of course, is not the only subject that this is a problem in...a lot of colleges and universities are finding that students' writing skills are also severely lacking, as are their english language competencies and even reading skills. of course, this usually doesn't happen at the ivies, stanford, mit amherst, swat, pomona, colgate...however, even faculty members at these schools are advising their institutions to stop awarding credits for high scores on ap exams because the curriculums in these courses - which are supposed to be "college-level" courses and standardized - have not been updated for years (sometimes decades...ask your chemistry friend!) by the College Board...students are getting credit for chemistry, physics, biology, and language ap's that aren't even close to resembling what they are supposed to at these schools.</p>
<p>i asked my college counselor this very question last year and he was like "AP Stats would definately be looked upon more favorably by colleges since its an AP and youre interested in humanities."</p>
<p>so here i am in AP stats....in which 70 percent of the class got a c or below on the last test.. and this was supposed to be the easy course that also looked better than calculous</p>
<p>GREAT.</p>
<p>AdOfficer, I agree wholeheartedly. As a high school substitute teacher, I am often surprised by what is considered "passing." The allowances made for students can be staggering ... I see kids graduating who truly cannot read, perform simple mathematical calculations, or write a decent sentence. I imagine that employers and colleges expect a certain minimum level of competency from a high school grad, and they are not always getting that. While I understand that accomodations need to be made for certain disabilities, I am amazed by the fact that this so often translates into students with less-than-high-school competency getting a regular high school diploma. Of course, the problem isn't just at the "lower" end of the spectrum. The reason I moved my daughter to a private school was because she was unable to get the level of challenge she needed from the public school in our district. My son is now a freshman & he is able to stay in a public school --- a neighboring district opened its doors to school of choice, and he is able to get the rigor he needs for free. The differences I have seen in schools is amazing --- I feel sorry for ad officers who are trying to figure out how to compare applicants!</p>
<p>Sorry to hijack the thread, but I felt the need to comment :)!</p>
<p>Calculus really isn't that hard... seriously, don't psyche yourself out - believing that you can't do it - just b/c it's 'calc.'</p>
<p>aube88 - I really don't understand how AP Stats can really look better than calc. In fact, I'd imagine that challenging yourself, taking a class that's NOT part of your 'realm' would seem impressive because it shows you are good in a range of skill sets. Furthermore, calculus (especially BC) is ridiculously useful in physics and the sciences.... not like that has anything to do w/ your interest.</p>
<p>For all those students who say 'calc is easy' -- please remember that what is easy for you may not be easy for someone else. </p>
<p>I agree that it is important for students to get exposed to calculus. And physics, and history and economics, etc. The question to me is, what level of exposure. If you are going to continue in the sciences in college, then taking Calc BC is important. If you are planning on majoring in English, then plain vanilla calculus should be fine. Problem is, at many high schools there is no choice. It's either AP Calc or Stats. So what's a student to do? I've said this before, at my daughter's HS the Calc teacher approaches the class assuming that all her students plan to major in engineering or physics in college. She tells students not to take the class if that's not you. </p>
<p>Students then have to decide whether to take calc anyway, and live with the C; or take Stats and get a better grade. For AdOfficer, the C didn't hurt him/her, since the Ivy acceptance came anyway. In today's selective admissions climate, I'm not sure how a C is received by colleges -- especially if that C drops a kid's rank significantly. Of course, that student will still get into a good school, but it might not be one of the top 10.</p>
<p>I took calculus in high school. I never thought it improved my reasoning skills. I remember absolutely nothing about that class. In contrast, I regret never having taken statistics.</p>
<p>well saidm sly-vt</p>
<p>what people don't seem to get is that you can get that "skill" set other ways that are more usefull, varied, interesting</p>
<p>what are we claiming that only ONE type of math is available to teach critcial thinking...if so that is pretty scary</p>
<p>my point in and has been, do kids really need two years of calcin HS, missing out on other fascinating, useful, classes to succeed in college and I say NO...</p>
<p>How much effort is required to self-studying AP Statistics?</p>
<p>I myself don't know, chronicidal, but maybe on the student forums they could give you an answer. What I have been told by colleges about AP's, though, is that they prefer to see in this order (1) attended coursework + completed exam; (2) attended coursework alone; (3) completed exam alone. </p>
<p>There's a very tough school near us that has no AP courses because the classes are already so demanding. However, to help with the AP exams, many students take courses at community colleges. (That also is a good choice relative to the eventual transcript, for admissions.)</p>
<p>Look at whether your school of choice takes Calc or Stat credit. I didn't bother to look, and am now taking an AP Calc AB class that is worth nothing at my school as it isn't necessary. I am going to have to take a Stats class though, so I wish I could go back and change my decision.</p>
<p>I would like to know why so many believe calculus gives one reasoning skills that are essential to Life. As a physician in academia who had to take calculus (many no longer require it), I absolutely regret stats was not required. Do I remember a whit of calculus or ever use it? Heck no. Statistics? Every single day. Unless one is going into engineering, math, physics, etc- statistics will carry you far and make you a much more discerning analyst of - almost everything. If you change your mind about your future- calculus will always be there.</p>
<p>^^ I have the prep book, and it seems that if you were willing just to skim through the prep book you'd be alright - at least get a three... I think I may do that for the hell of it - and so I can laugh at my classmates who took the class and get the same score as me. Yes, as one of my close friends observed, I have no soul.</p>