AP testing required

Parents Forum
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<p>Mathmom, I too find these students who get As in calculus and 1s on the AP mysterious. It's one thing if it were AP History or AP English-- you could know a lot of English or history but not be able to do well on the test. But a student who gets a 25% on the AP Calc test gets a 2; it seems like that class must not have been teaching, or testing, any calculus whatsoever. Did they not have a text? Did they not do problems? On what basis did the teacher award As?</p>

<p>And, as Mr. Fang remarked, this is exactly why the AP tests exist: so that schools can't claim a student learned a subject when she hasn't.</p>

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<p>Regarding letting anyone into an AP class. While there are points in favor of that, I have never felt that a college-bound high school student was being done a favor if he/she took a course that destroyed his/her transcript. I've seen it happen where absolutely brilliant kids who were geniuses in certain subjects took an AP course in a subject that did not play to their strengths and destroyed their chance of getting into the school of their dreams -- because of a low grade, not because of a low AP score. I think that's a terrible shame and that same kid probably would learn a lot more in an honors course than in a course where he or she is watching his or her dreams crumble. So I guess I'm in favor of a little bit of intervention from counselors and/or some kind of screening process.</p>

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<p>Apparently the teachers at OP's school are not having very good success.</p>

<p>
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School districts that are serious about AP courses can provide a lot of support.

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If the School District is serious about AP courses, they would make sure that the majority of the kids in an AP class score 3 or above on the AP test. Intention is meaningless without results.</p>

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<p>To clarify, by passing I did mean a score a 3 or above. I just looked at the statistics and crunched some numbers. There were 10 AP classes with 10 or more students given. Of these the percentage of each class taking the test ranged between 26 and 91%. (1 class with 91% tested; 4 classes with 70% tested; 3 classes where 40-50% tested; 1 class where 39% tested and 1 class where 26% tested) Of these the percentages passing were between 6% and 68% with an average passing pecentage of 43% for those taking the tests. This is actually better than I thought when I first wrote the post and these numbers reflect increases in all areas accross the board over the past several years. They also clearly show which classes are severely deficient in categories of students choosing to take the test and of these the percentages passing. While it seems reasonable to require a test in a class with a 70% taking rate and a 68% passing rate it seems like a waste to require a test for classes where only 46% of the students chose to take the test and of these only 6% passed. With these odds I think the students should have the right to make the choice and administration should be looking closely at what is going on in these classes with regard to grades, students taking the class and the quality of teaching. More support is also needed for teachers teaching the class for the first time and in light of the record testing for these classes also should not be required.</p>

<p>OperaDad, I appreciate your summary. I also appreciate all the other input on how to build a better program.</p>

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<p>
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While it seems reasonable to require a test in a class with a 70% taking rate and a 68% passing rate it seems like a waste to require a test for classes where only 46% of the students chose to take the test and of these only 6% passed.

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<p>I'm a homeschooling parent. I always wondered how all those students were getting such high GPAs. Now I know-- because they're taking bogus "AP" classes where they aren't actually having to do any work. And if this is the caliber of teaching of the supposed hardest classes, what, if anything, are students doing in the lower level classes?</p>

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<p>Cardinal Fang asked "what, if anything, are students doing in the lower level classes?"</p>

<p>This is precisely the reason why many average students are taking the advanced classes. It really isn't only about weight and rank. However, to be fair, while there are definitely classes that the term bogus might be appropriate for, there are others that although they are demanding extensive work their statistics are dismal. All that I can guess is that the teaching either lacks clarity or what is being taught doesn't match the test material. This is sad because at least this year I know the kids are working and I would expect that these kids do have the aptitude.</p>

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<p>My understanding is that the Collegeboard has started auditing AP courses and is going to be stopping schools from teaching them if they are not up to the level they should be. There is a range I guess. My kids worked very hard in their AP courses.</p>

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<p>In an ideal world, schools would use the AP test data to evaluate the effectiveness of the curriculum and teaching. Unfortunately, in our teacher-union-dominated environment, the schools goes to great lengths to not disclose the pass rates on a teacher-by-teacher basis, though the jungle drums have it that some teachers have enormously better passing rates than others for the same course. I don't see the point in kids putting in all that time and effort for a school year only to learn that they haven't been well prepared for the exam.</p>

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<p>Just aMom: In our school there often is no honors or dual credit alternative, it is a choice between regular or AP and in some cases pre-AP is also an option. There are many kids that opt for the rigor rather than being in a blow off class. Perhaps you are onto something. I don't get your last question though. Franglish, in a true student there is always motivation to do well and quite honestly if the motivation isn't there it won't be cultivated by an inconsequencial exam.</p>

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<p>I also live in Texas and my school operates much like 181818's: the choices are AP or blowoff class. The regular classes at my inner city high school are... Not good. This year they only made it through 1 chapter of Huckleberry Finn. I'll admit that some of our AP classes are blowoff classes, too -- it depends on the teacher and varies widely. It seems that in some departments at my school, the teachers think that AP = more busy work, not more learning. </p>

<p>Last year there was one teacher who had a 0% passing rate for her AP exam. I'm glad to say she won't be teaching that AP course anymore. </p>

<p>I think my school has a good system: we are not required to take the exams (some of the poor teaching would make that a disaster), but we are 'encouraged' to take them, especially because our district subsidizes the cost; each exam cost me $13 this year. They will even subsidize the exams we self study as long as we get approval from the principal, which isn't hard. I'm definitely grateful for that, since I'm taking 7 exams this year. Saves me money for the study guides, and I could cover the cost with my after school job, so I didn't have to burden Mom.</p>

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<p>Our public requires students to take the AP test for every class they take, and to pay the full price of $80 or whatever it is now. I believe that students on free and reduced lunch get some type of subsidy to pay for some or all of their test fees.</p>

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<p>I may discourage my son from taking the AP Gov't test. It's worth taking the class to be in the "smartest" class with his peers, but none of my other kids ever got college credit for the course (even with 5s on the exam.)</p>

<p>An AP course that is only the equivalent of one semester of college is almost worthless, from a college credit standpoint. These would be AP Environmental Science, Calc AB, etc. </p>

<p>It is worth taking the class for the knowledge (College Calc will be easier if you've had some previously) but in all likelihood you will not get any useful college credit by taking the AP test.</p>

<p>And $86 is $86.</p>

<p>PS. He will have taken a total of 8 APs, even without the Gov't exam. I just believe there are situations where the class is more important than the supposed credit.</p>

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<p>Great point, Mommusic, a student can take the class to prepare for college even if they don't take the test.</p>

<p>Many of you have mentioned fees for the test in your public schools. You have also mentioned that fees are waived for kids on free/reduced cost lunch. One of my concerns has been that when taking multiple classes a kid might not be on the free lunch program but still might avoid these classes because of concerns about the cost for the tests. Not because they don't have the ability to pass but because of what they will have to sacrifice to pay for the test or because they don't think they will have the money period. I would expect that this would be truer than ever in today's economy. Do you know if this occurs in your schools or do you think that the free lunch criteria is adequate?</p>

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<p>A couple of points - my opinions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Cost of test - my own kids would not have taken as many tests if I had to pay. I am grateful for the SD that paid for their tests. Definitely many kids who are not on free/reduced lunch still would not risk paying $86 for many tests.</p></li>
<li><p>If the test is free to the student - there is zero reason to sit it out. If the teaching is bad - there are study books. There is value to taking the test for the sake of taking the test. One of mine took Physics C, which is two tests graded separately. There were 5 kids in the class and of the 10 test scores there was ONE 3. The rest were 1's and 2's. My d got 2's. Nevertheless she said she was glad she took the tests and the experience was worth it.</p></li>
<li><p>What I meant above was - kids who apply to very very selective colleges need to take the test. An absent score may raise a red flag - if I were an adcom I would question it. These kids are competing against each other for a few spots in a college - they are competing against kids who did take the test.<br>
Kids who are applying to lesser selective schools should still take the test because the admissions dept isn't going to care if they got a 1 or a 3. It won't hurt them.</p></li>
<li><p>What is up with your HS curricula? My kids' school was small - student body of 600 but in core classes we have 3 levels of instruction: General, college prep, honors. Above Honors AP has been added for most core subjects. College bound 12th graders have an option of taking college prep, honors or AP. Even in Calculus we have a regular Calculus class and an AP Calculus class.
AP course are open to the student body as long as prerequsites have been met, i.e. one needs to have mastered pre-calc to take AP Calc. They are pretty much self selecting and the teachers all assign rigorous summer homework that must be complete the first day to remain in the class.</p></li>
<li><p>The way to tell if a teacher is effective is to analyze the test scores. If students are not taking the test there is no way the teacher can evaluate the instruction. Having support for AP teachers is crucial. It improves instruction and test scores. As teachers gain more experience in teaching a specific AP course the scores improve - at least at our hs.
If the admin won't release teachers scores - kids should ask around. They know the teachers - if one is moving to AP Calc - they should ask what the pass rate is.
I allowed my daughter to take an independent study for AP Psyc because the pass rate was so high. The teacher had a good program set up and it showed. 3/4 of the kids got 4's and 5's.</p></li>
<li><p>The grade in the course frequently does not correlate to the grade on the AP test. I have seen it go both ways. for a variety of reasons. However, passing an AP test does give a college bound student self confidence as they move into college.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>Depending on how grades are weighted by your school, there is an incentive for kids to take AP's to try to pad their GPA/rank. Our school has AP classes with "AP" weighting, then takes the weighting down to "honors" weighting if the student does not take the AP exam!</p>

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<p>Also it might be wise to take the SAT subject area test if you are afraid the AP will look bad/not get credit</p>

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<p>What's up with our curicula? I will definitely make some suggestions but for most of our core classes the choices are pre-AP or regular for Freeshman and Sophomore level and regular and AP plus a few dual credit options mostly in junior and senior year. There is no honors or college prep. I don't know if this is typical of Texas public schools or not. Classes are most heavily weighted for AP classes, pre-AP and dual credit classes are equally weighted, regular class weights are significantly lower than the other two and the rigor usually matches that difference. We have very little middle ground.</p>

<p>I can see where teachers could assess their teaching better if they have the AP results. I'm not sure if they couldn't do the same thing at a lower cost if all the students took the prior year's tests for the sake of assessment. In anycase it seems when the test is taken for the purposes of improving the school the school schould be paying for it completely.</p>

<p>As for colleges, I am purplexed about which colleges are requiring AP score reports. My senior has applied to some very competitive schools and although his applications have been considered complete by the school he has not submitted a single official AP test score report.</p>

<p>The only disadvantage I can see to taking and scoring poorly on the test is in the calculations of some AP Scholar Honors where the overall test average as well as the number of tests with scores of 3 or above are considered. I really don't know if these awards have any significance.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Not because they don't have the ability to pass but because of what they will have to sacrifice to pay for the test or because they don't think they will have the money period. I would expect that this would be truer than ever in today's economy. Do you know if this occurs in your schools or do you think that the free lunch criteria is adequate?

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<p>I think that could be a legitimate concern. On the other hand, say a kid decides in May to take three AP courses the following year and doesn't meet the criteria for free lunch. Maybe his parents can only afford to pay half the fees. This kid would have from May until the following March to babysit, collect and turn in recyclables, or take a summer job to pay for the fees. There are a lot of high school activities that require money and kids learn how to raise the money. Maybe this kid could band together with some AP students and they could sell pizza after school or do a fundraiser. Or go to the administration and ask how the funds can be raised. That could make for a pretty strong essay wen college application time comes -- it would show dedication and commitment.</p>

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<p>Some schools have rigorous criteria to qualify for "taking the most difficult courses". They may specify a number of AP courses in order to make that category. For the most selective schools, it can be a problem if you cannot make that category. </p>

<p>For the most selective schools, any little thing can be a problem. That's just the way it goes. But I have two kids who got into ivy without reporting an early AP test score on the app, and the counselors at our private high school who are used to highly selective colleges have no trouble telling kids to omit the grade on an AP test if it is unfavorable. Yeah, it raises a flag, but a 1 or 2 could eliminate you right there, and apparently not reporting a grade does not. It is possible you did not take the test for any number of reasons--illness, emergency, etc. I know kids who got low grades on AP test from that school in early courses, and they did just that--not report those scores on the apps. One is at Princeton; the other at Harvard. Not a big deal at all. Few kids send an AP test transcript with the apps anyways. That doesn't go out until the you know where you are going to college and you want those credits. And College Board will delete test grades if you ask them to do so for a fee when it comes to the AP tests. But most kids I know don't bother because they don't have to send the official scores until they are well in the college..</p>

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<p>Absolutely if a kids wants to do this badly enough they have the time to make it happen. And your are right that could make for an awesome essay. This still however puts these kids at a real disadvantage. So many kids have so many demands on their time and money so they have prioritize, we all do. Especially in senior year where there are college ap. fees and fees for college coming up this type of fundraising, to be able to take a test that maybe the kid doesn't know that he will feel ready to take a year later, may be over the top for many. Still it shouldn't count them out or cause them not to get the credit for the class. One thing that needs to be said because so often it seems that the education system portrays the idea that if a kid works he will do well. You can be an outstanding student, do all the work and find an area of study that stumps you. It is possible to go into a class and not recognize that it would be so challenging. Sometimes the class is worth the challenge even if you didn't excell. Sometimes a class is poorly taught and the kid just doesn't have the time to teach it to himself even if he could because he has already taken on so many other demands and this isn't one that he budgeted for. The point is that sometimes requiring a kid to come up with the money to justify taking a class is just wrong. While fundraising is a definite solution it shouldn't be the expectation.</p>