AP vs. IB - Which Do Colleges Prefer?

Archive Ask The Dean Archive
41

<p>This is for advisement to a relatively small group of students, i.e. extraordinary achievers, trying to choose between IB and AP.</p>

<p>Which is better, IB or AP?</p>

<p>IB is better if you're smart and hard-working enough to complete 3 college-creditable courses as a high school student, and want enter college with up to a semester's worth of credit (15-18 credit hours).</p>

<p>IB is better if you're "socially conscious", because instilling social consciousness is IB's core mission.</p>

<p>IB is better if you want to receive training in maximal multi-tasking.</p>

<h2>IB is better if you enjoy subsisting on 6-7 hours of sleep, because with 6 courses plus CAS, IB is not for "early"-to-bed-goers, i.e.11 PM or earlier. (But perhaps you or your parents should read up recent research showing the major negative effects of sleep deprivation on teenagers, including cognitive functioning impairment.)</h2>

<p>AP is better for math and science students. It lets them focus on what they're best at. </p>

<p>AP is better for top-caliber students who want to go to the Ivies, Stanford, MIT, et al. Such students today often take 8 to 10 AP courses. In the highest-competition applicant pools, 8 to 10 AP courses with 4-5 scores get hands-down preference over 3 AP courses with 4-5 scores and 3 IB courses with 6-7 scores, excluding athletes, legacies, minority applicants, and geographic-diversity-roster-fillers, such as "This student from Kimball Nebraska has a 2260 SAT; his teachers and gc say he's the best student they've ever had; he has taken 2 AP courses, which is all that his school offers."</p>

<p>AP is better for students whose schools teach, or else offer local-college enrollment in, second-year college courses. Today kids are taking linear algebra, organic chemistry, Elizabethan literature, Spanish VI and post-AP computer science these days.</p>

<p>AP is the only option for students who want to do 3 years of high school and then go on to college. It only takes enrolling in a summer English course to fulfill the 4-year English graduation requirement in 3 years. Obviously, unless an IB programme allowed 10th graders to be enrolled, this would be impossible. </p>

<p>AP is the only option for students who want to enter college with a full-year or more of credit, i.e. gaining admission from high school to sophomore standing, saving a year of college costs. (Caveat: some private colleges limit AP credits to a ceiling number, but many, and most state universities give unlimited credit.)</p>

<p>There's a dual-program school in my region that offers 27 AP courses and IB. The highest-aspiration, NMS Finalist students overwhelmingly flock to the AP option, and every math and science student does</p>

<p>IB has given public schools a much better college-preparatory pathway than regular curricula. But as a "wholistic package", it is short on flexibility and maximal college-course crediting. It's a "middle-goal" bureaucrat's invention. For example, why, if 75th-85th percentile-ability 11th graders do IB, why doesn't IBO send schools this memo: "Feel free enroll your 95th-99th percentile-ability 10th graders in the IB programme, based on their 9th grade PSAT scores, SAT/ ACT scores, or whatever measures you deem appropriate?" </p>

<p>AP allows 9th and 10th grade kids to take college-level classes. Last year, in AP courses that are equivalent to IB HL courses, 3050 9th and 10th graders took AP Calculus BC; 3182 took AP Physics B; 5428 took AP Chemistry ; 12,118 took AP English Lit; 4016 took AP Computer Science; 18,901 took AP Biology. There is no IB pathway for these top-achieving students, in the subjects they are passionate about.</p>

42

<p>well. my school only offers IB, but i think that domestic colleges are equally aware of the two programs.</p>

<p>i'm a little confused though. some IB courses aren't exactly "rigorous." i don't know about AP, but IB-SL Math Studies is absolutely ridiculous. it's easier than algebra II -.-</p>

<p>also, as the above poster said, IB age limits suck. i am currently taking IB-SL math studies as a freshman, and because i'm not yet 16, i'm not allowed to take (and gain credit for) the end-of-year exam. but whatever.</p>

<p>
[quote]
AP is the only option for students who want to do 3 years of high school and then go on to college. It only takes enrolling in a summer English course to fulfill the 4-year English graduation requirement in 3 years. Obviously, unless an IB programme allowed 10th graders to be enrolled, this would be impossible.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>okay i see where you're coming from, but most relatively urban HS's these days offer some kind of dual-enrollment, so graduating (or at least taking a full college schedule) early is pretty much available to anyone--IB or AP.</p>

43

<p>IB provides many levels of Math for students of varying abilities. If you have high ability in math, then you should not be taking the Math Studies course. You should be on the Math HL track, which covers materila beyond Calc BC and requires three testing sessions plus the internal assessment.<br>
A poster above incorrectly said that theater is not part of IB. In fact it is an option, as are art, computer science, music, etc. Go to the IBO site.<br>
Finally, as far as homeschool dad's "extended essay", he is way off base and sounds quite angry.
My S gained admission to Stanford based on his enrollment (and success in) an IB diploma program. Many of his classmates (and prior year graduates) attend the Ivies, MIT, Duke, to name a few. The IB diploma program requires a special student with characteristics that include dedication, honor, sacrifice and collaboration. These students test for multiple sessions for each course, even for SL courses. They are required to take oral exams as well. They complete internal assessments that are graded by their teachers and then a sampling is checked by international examiners to validate the scores. All of their exam papers are scored externally.
All of our high school's NMFs are IB kids. It has been that way for years. The IB kids are the leaders of the school, they are the officers of the service and academic clubs, they have the top GPAs, they serve the school and each other. The teachers love to teach them. Our school uses some AP classes within the IB program. These classes are filled with only IB students while the same AP class is offered to non-IB students. The AP test pass rate for the IB students is at least twice as high as that for the non-IB students. The senior IB students come back to school for two hours for the pinning ceremony for the IB Juniors. No threats, no extra credit, no service hours. They just do it. These kids amaze me and I am proud to watch their success in academics and in life.
To be frank, neither AP exam scores or IB scores from senior year are used in the college admissions process. We received a letter from Stanford telling us the admissions offer was not dependent on passing AP or IB exams. The school merely encouraged the SCEA students to take these rigorous courses rather than cruising for the remainder of high school.</p>

44

<p>The semantics of "diploma" versus "college level" are incomparable primarily due to the fact that the IB is, as its name suggests, an International program. To put this in context, in most advanced industrialized nations, the final two years of academic work in "high school" (or Grades 12 and 13) during which these students complete the IB curriculum often substitutes for a traditional American college education. For example, students in UK may apply (from Grade 13) to Medical or Law school with IB scores. </p>

<p>Secondly, as an IB year one student myself, I must note that I, as well as many of my fellow students, enroll in AP courses as electives to fill our schedule. In addition, our teachers squeeze AP curriculum into our IB classes, and IB students generally perform better on AP tests (without taking the course) than students enrolled in the appropriate course. </p>

<p>Finally, the IB assessment criteria are holistic while those of the AP are narrow. The IB grade for one subject usually comprises a formal paper (or two), hands-on activities (labs for science, performance for music, etc.), oral presentations (for languages), and then an examination at the end of the course. This method allows the assessment of the student's complete mastery of the subject, rather than his/her rote memorization or test-taking ability.</p>

45

<p>Homeschooldad said it the best.</p>

<p>Upton, one, if you think IB and AP are incomparable then why are YOU comparing them. two, yes IB is an international diploma, which will allow you to go abroad and study in college. do you know what the percentage is of graduating american seniors who will wish to do that? i would guess close or less than 5%. So for the 95% of graduating seniors, who will going to college in the US, would not need an "international" diploma and can benefit more from many many AP classes (8-9 by end of senior year).</p>

<p>As i will repeat myself, IB itself reports that it is "diploma" program (i would say a very very strong HIGH SCHOOL one indeed). << That is on their OWN sponsored website. AP itself reports that is a "college level" program designed to give credits for college courses.</p>

<p>very very strong high school level vs. college level. which is more rigorous? who knows? which one do colleges PREFER (as the original question was)? IMHO, i would go for the COLLEGE courses, because we are trying to get into COLLEGE, rather than the strong high school courses.</p>

46

<p>I really think different courses have different perceptions at different schools. If you can find a school with a dual AP/IB setup, that's really advantageous because many of the courses prepare you fantastically for both exams, and then whatever the particular college likes, you're still covered. The problem? LOTS of work, since the exams are quite different in some areas. But if you're willing to make the sacrifice of taking both, I think it's worth doing. You really do get the best of both worlds</p>

47

<p>i am an IB student myself and am in my 2nd year of the diploma program...and all i can say is, from my research i found out that IB and AP are both given equal weightage in most of the universities....although, some univeristies definitely prefer IB over AP....but overall, IB = AP</p>

48

<p>Hey guys, could someone help me with a dilemma?
My school offers IB, but I chose to go to the regular program instead. Problem is, my school doesn't offer AP courses, so I'm self-studying for the AP courses.</p>

<p>This also means that I won't appear to have a very "rigorous" course load, even though studying 6 APs at home isn't really easy. I think I'll get 5 for 4 of them and 4 for 2 of them (literature..and maybe world history).</p>

<p>Will this prevent me from getting into a good university? :S</p>

49

<p>Let's look at this another way.</p>

<p>For many smart, academically oriented high school kids, the top priority is for them to have the opportunity to be with their peers, in an environment in which academic achievement is considered "normal" rather than something that gets you ostracized or beaten up. The opportunity to spend the four years of high school in an environment where people who study hard and earn good grades are not considered freaks may be more important than the content of the particular program that gets you there.</p>

<p>In other words, smart kids want to be where the other smart kids are.</p>

<p>Thirtysomething years ago, when I went to Cornell, I met about a dozen girls who had graduated from the Bronx High School of Science in New York City. More than half of them were not particularly interested in science and were not majoring in science in college. So why did they go to Bronx Science? Because it was the best, most academically oriented public high school available to them. (In those days, Stuyvesant was for boys only.) They were willing to follow a curriculum not particularly suited to their academic tastes in order to spend four years with their peers, rather than in the jungle of a standard New York City high school.</p>

<p>The same kind of thinking may apply to IB programs in some communities. If IB is "where the smart kids are," kids for whom the program is not ideally suited may want to make the necessary compromises in terms of what they will study in order to have the advantage of being with their peers.</p>

<p>On the other hand, if a particular student has several opportunities to be in different academically oriented environments with students of similar interest and ability, IB may not necessarily be the best choice for that particular student.</p>

<p>Some of the students who might have to make compromises in order to be in an IB diploma program include</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Those who are extremely accelerated in one or more subjects. They may find it necessary to temporarily discontinue study of the subject or to spend a year or two studying peripheral aspects of it in order to get their schedules back on track with IB's schedule. (For example, at the IB school that my daughter attended, certain students who came from a French immersion program were a year or two too advanced in French to fit into the IB program. They had to discontinue their study of French for one or two years in the early part of high school, during which most of them studied Latin instead. They then resumed their study of French during the actual IB years and took the IB HL French exam in grade 12. Similarly, a student who is one year too advanced in math might spend a year taking AP Statistics, rather than a course in the normal math sequence, in order to get back into sync with the IB schedule.)</p></li>
<li><p>Those who would have preferred to complete high school a year early.*As HomeschoolDad points out, this is not possible in IB.</p></li>
<li><p>*Those who have highly specialized interests and would prefer to emphasize those interests in their curriculum as much as possible. IB forces breadth on students and therefore decreases their opportunities to specialize. (My son, who did not do IB, was able to take seven computer science or technical education courses in high school, including such things as preengineering and digital art, as well as AP computer science. This would not have been possible for an IB student.)</p></li>
<li><p>Those whose principal "extracurricular" interest is something that requires enrollment in a particular class during the school day. Journalism, band, orchestra, and chorus often fall into this category. There may not necessarily be room in an IB student's schedule for these electives every year, and inability to enroll in the course may make the student ineligible to participate in the extracurricular aspects of the activity. Sometimes, there are ways around this, but it can take some doing. (My daughter, who was in IB, managed to stay in instrumental music classes for all four years of high school, thereby preserving her eligibility for all-state honors band, which is what mattered to her, by taking several non-IB courses that were required for high school graduation in summer school.)</p></li>
<li><p>In some schools, those whose interests lie primarily in math, science, or computer science. However, this is not true in all instances. In IB schools that also offer AP courses, students who are relatively advanced in their curriculum when they enter high school may have opportunities to take an ample number of college creditable math or science courses. However, they may find that they have to take one or two of these as electives (most likely, in the form of AP courses) outside the IB program. For example, at the school my daughter attended, it was entirely possible for students to take college creditable courses in biology, chemistry, and physics. The school offered HL biology and HL physics, as well as AP courses in all three subjects. A student could take HL biology and HL physics as two of the IB diploma subjects and AP chemistry as an elective or take just HL biology as part of the IB diploma and take both AP chemistry and AP physics as electives. It was also entirely possible (indeed, common) for students to take math beyond AP BC calculus. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>A few misconceptions seem to be floating around:</p>

<p>First, IB is not a synonym for mediocrity. It is true that in some school systems, it is implemented as a way to try to pull a school or a group of students out of mediocrity, but this is not always the case. Nor is IB incompatible with attending top colleges. Of the approximately 100 IB Diploma graduates in my daughter's class, 36 were National Merit Finalists. Students from that class are now attending seven of the eight Ivy League schools, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Duke, Northwestern, and a variety of other highly selective schools. Not all chose such schools; about a third are at our state university, but this is not indicative of mediocrity, either. It's a matter of money. Among those at the state university, most have large merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Second, being in IB does not make it impossible to enter college with a substantial number of credits. My daughter entered with 30. Other students, who made different course choices within and outside the IB program, had more. Getting this much credit usually requires taking AP tests on the basis of IB courses (especially IB SL courses) and also taking AP courses in 9th or 10th grades, but this is what top students in IB programs do anyway. In the best programs, the schools help them do it, usually by teaching some subjects as combined AP/IB courses or by incorporating extra AP-specific material into IB courses. Through AP testing, my daughter got college credit for all three of her IB SL subjects.</p>

<p>Third, the IB program does include both Mandarin and Theater. My daughter's school offered both as diploma subjects. Of course, no one IB school can offer all of the possible courses available in the worldwide IB program. But these two subjects do exist.</p>

<p>Fourth, IB does not necessarily require keeping an inhuman schedule. My daughter never stayed up past 10 PM on a school night and ended up with a 3.96 unweighted GPA and a 39/45 IB diploma score. It takes self-discipline to do this, and it requires keeping one's extracurricular commitments moderate (and in my daughter's case, it helped that she did most of her CAS hours in the summer), but it can be done.</p>

<p>Fifth, a well-implemented IB program does not provide inferior preparation for college. Most of the students from my daughter's IB graduating class have found that they are far better prepared for college, in terms of general education, ability to manage their time, and writing ability, than most of the other students around them, including students who have many AP credits. Some of them may have regretted being in IB while they were in high school because it is indeed a very time-consuming program, and they might have preferred to spend some of their time in other ways. But now that they're in college, they're pleased that they did IB. Their academic transition to college was far easier than that of many other students.</p>

50

<p>as a potential engineering student I got to say that engineers or people extremely dominant in a math/science shouldn't do the full IB diploma. My school offers both but I decided to go the AP route cuz I suck at writing. The problem with IB for these groups of people is its inflexibility. The science wiz won't be able to take all the science courses that he wants and will be forced to compromise in order to the diploma. Also the math courses are not truly stimulating. </p>

<p>I'm taking IB math HL now and my teacher hates the course. Theres no depth to the course. We cover each days topic usually in 30 mins or less then talk about how our day has gone or do math puzzles. The one positive thing is that you learn some new techniques to classic SAT problems.</p>

<p>The course that I heard was interesting though was IB Computer Science. AP mostly dealt with actual coding programs while IB talked about the whole business cycle while programming was just a portion. </p>

<p>Basically don't do the full diploma but some individual courses have their merits.</p>

51

<p>Colleges prefer high scores.
Also consider that IB SL does NOT count for college credit. And they're also two year courses. the EE (hours and hours of researching/essay writing), TOK (philosophy), CAS (which you're doing anyway) are almost neglected.</p>

<p>IMO, taking the full IB (minimum 3 IB HL [and 3 IB SL]) is like taking 12 APs - they're essentially 6 advanced classes per year.
I'd prefer AP. But 50% of the reason is because my school doesn't offer it.</p>

52

<p>I think ty misses the point: IB is international and thus refers to itself as a diploma program with an international perspective. As Upton said, many European countries equate the IB diploma with undergraduate college years and permit direct application to graduate school. Thus, clearly, IB is considered "college level."<br>
In addition, many colleges do give credit and/or standing to SL courses, especially when the student has received the IB diploma. Furthermore, check out the specific colleges for their rules on awarding credit for AP. Many AP course receive no credit at many colleges. You must look at the specific school.<br>
Lastly, I have read on this and many other threads of high school students "self-studying" for AP tests, but I have not read one mention of a student self-studying for an IB test. I think being able to "self-study" for a test is indicative of its level of rigor.</p>

53

<p>"many European countries equate the IB diploma with undergraduate college years and permit direct application to graduate school" </p>

<p>Where did you get that?</p>

54

<p>Self-studying for IB tests is not possible because certain assignments that students complete as part of an IB course (called Internal Assessments or External Assessments) count for a portion of the IB exam grade. </p>

<p>Students cannot take an IB test without having taken an IB course. The same is not true for AP.</p>

55

<p>DD is one of 5 kids in our fledgling IB program who is sticking it out for the diploma - most of her courses are AP/IB courses....at the beginning of the year, we had 14 kids going for it - most have dropped, probably b/c they saw no advantage in college admissions (all those AP/IBs show up on their transcript anyway - most colleges won't even know if they are diploma candidates or not). </p>

<p>We'll never know if any college accepts these kids because of IB... but I am very proud of DD because she is doing this to challenge herself and to make her transition to rigorous college easier. Her experience with the EE (the kids here have to find their own mentor as our school does almost nothing for them), working with her peers to prep for the orals, finding other IBers online, and using us as her sounding board as she wrote her TOK paper have, IMHO, a unique value that the AP route does not....</p>

<p>At our struggling public urban school I am very glad there is an option which urges some of the highly motivated kids to do more than sit home with a stack of practice AP tests....whether colleges prefer it or not!</p>

56

<p>We live out of the US. My Ss attend a school that offers three levels to graduation a normal American Diploma; IB Diploma and IB Certificate. Because my son did not fit in to all the criteria for the IB Diploma, he has taken certificate. He is taking 4 HL courses, plus 2 regular school courses. They are in depth, a lot of work, and has been said by previous posters, taught him how to research, write and orally present knoweledge acquired in the classes. Upon completion of his external exams, he will be eligble for up to 24 credits towards his degree at the university he may be attending. For anyone who is interested in the link the IBO website <a href="http://www.ibo.org/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.ibo.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

57

<p>Here's a UK med school 5 year program directly from IB diploma. Of course, it is hard to compare as high school in UK is very different from US. Which is the point of my earlier post. They also have level As etc. I am not sure of the details. And perhaps Germany is different. And yes I know there are a few 6 year pre-Med/ Med programs in the US to which an AP student may gain entry.
My point is that IB courses are "college level" and that it is a matter of semantics to describe them as rigourous high school courses as opposed to AP being college level material.</p>

<p>Here is an example of UK medical school admission requirements for IB diploma receipients:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.medicine.bham.ac.uk/ug/mbchb/guidance.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicine.bham.ac.uk/ug/mbchb/guidance.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>MBChB Five Year Medical Course
University of Birmingham, UK
Admissions requirements:<br>
International Baccalaureate
The following are the requirements which are acceptable for entry to our medical course. Chemistry is compulsory at higher level and if Physics is not being offered at higher or standard level it must be held at GCSE/O level at grade A.
Higher Level: Chemistry and Biology or Physics, and one other approved subject. Grade 6s are normally required.
Subsidiary Level: The subjects must include English, Biology and also Maths if not offered at the higher level.</p>

<p>Marion: I agree. I think that the fact you may not self-study for IB exams is evidence of their rigor. However, some schools offer a certificate program in which students may select some IB courses rather than completing the enitre diploma program.</p>

58

<p>curious, the only reason why you cant self-study for an IB test is because you are not allowed to. you must take the class and you must complete certain assignments in the class that will be factored in your exam score.</p>

<p>Also, yes, IB is INTERNATIONAL. yes, IB is a DIPLOMA program. and it is SOME european countries grant ONE year of UNDERGRADUATE study. not many, not yearS, not GRADUATE. and once again, it is a diploma program, a HIGH SCHOOL diploma program. They may be as rigorous, and if i had something to defeat that statement, i apologize. But even if it is as rigorous, the question was which is BETTER for college admissions, not which is harder, not which is one is for smarter students, not which is better as a whole, but for COLLEGE ADMISSIONS.</p>

<p>i will stand by my statement, which is also proven by your evidence, mainly consisting of international and european relativity, that colleges in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA would like AP better. sure, international schools would look favorably on IB because it is international. so if the OP wanted to go abroad, by all means go IB. but like most, a very very high percentage of american high school graduating seniors, who will probably go to college inside the US, AP is better for admission chances.</p>

<p>lastly, IB is once again very inflexible. sure, you may be able to orchestra, or band, or drama. But what if you wanted to do all THREE. what if you wanted to do academic decathlon, science olympiad, student government, AND sports. i doubt an IB schedule would accommodate that, through scheduling purposes and time purposes. but guess what, an AP schedule does.</p>

<p>all im saying is that it all depends on the type of person you are. if you do not want to engage yourself in many extracurriculars, do IB, but make sure you also have many AP test scores.</p>

<p>quite frankly, i believe AP is better. it would seem to me that college level courses would be looked higher upon than high school diploma program courses. but then again, People who believe IB is better will believe IB is better. my opinion is mine, your opinion is yours.</p>

59

<p>As a second year college student who did the IB program back in the day, I'd say it was quite worthless. And if I had to do it again, I wouldn't.</p>

<p>My hs has been top 30 US news ever since I was a freshman there and it offered both IB and AP.</p>

<p>The IB kids always spent tons more hours doing school work than the AP kids, and in retrospect there is way more one should and could do in hs besides school work. </p>

<p>In terms of college preparation, IB was terrible. All you do is tons of homework assignments for your IB classes each night. You could get a good grade slaving away at homework in IB. In college, there is not really much homework, instead you study each night for tests, and the bulk of your grades come from tests. Homework won't save you from doing poorly on a test, like it could in IB.</p>

<p>I go to a good university now, and of course there's no way of saying whether I would have been accepted here or not if I did AP instead. But I can say that the smartest kids in AP and IB all got into great schools. So why not have a life in high school and still get into a good school?</p>

<p>Another plus of AP, and I can say this for sure, is if I had taken a full AP load instead of IB, I would have tons more college credits now and it would be a big help. I could add in a new minor, or take lower course loads or study abroad. There would be way more flexibility. Colleges just give way more credit for AP exams than IB. I sometimes tried to take the equivalent AP test to my IB test. E.g. I took HL IB English, and then took the AP English exam as well. My score on the IB HL english was not good enough for college credit, but the AP was. This same thing happened with HL Biology, Math, and History as well. I got credits from my AP exams for those subjects, but not the IBs. Colleges only credit you for 6's and 7's HL exams, but its way easier to get 4's and 5's on the APs. If I had taken even more AP's I'm sure I would have even more credit.</p>

<p>In conclusion - IB = waste of time, no benefits for the future that I could think of.</p>

<p>Oh yea, and that IB diplomma that you want so badly and work so hard for while you're in the program? It means nothing. That piece of paper comes to you in the mail the summer after your senior year after you've already been accepted to all your colleges and made a decision on where to end. It's just a piece of paper that's collecting dust somewhere in my closet.</p>

60

<p>I'm in the IB program. I go to an all IB school. Here, we take all HL classes but test HL in only 3, the other 3 we test SL with HL knowledge. Since SL often doesn't get you college credit, a lot of people go take the AP test where they tested SL (knowing HL) and get the credit that way. It's a LOT of work, but it earned the school 1st place on the newsweek rankings. Since I don't have any AP experience Ill speak only of IB. In the end it results in a few going to Harvard each year, but there are a few down sides. The biggest is constantly doing school work. Ill be doing homework/studying between 4-7 hours a day. This time of the year averages about 6. They say it will pay off in the long run, we will see.</p>