<p>Seeking information about International Baccalaureate programs, specifically at public schools in the US. How common are these programs? Is IB considered to be superior to AP programs? If a particular school could have one or the other, which should it choose? Why? ARE there schools that have both programs? If there is only enough money to add AP classes to existing curriculum OR start IB program, which would be preferred? I've been told that IB can be very expensive to implement, but would appreciate any and all information.</p>
<p>This has been discussed on CC quite a bit, even since I joined the forum this spring. DO some searching, both in the parent's forum as well as in high school life.
I think that in the thread below, the discussion was quite heated:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/242813-ib-vs-ap.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/242813-ib-vs-ap.html</a>
Look also at this one:
<a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/186206-ib-math-hl-harvard-math.html%5B/url%5D">http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/186206-ib-math-hl-harvard-math.html</a></p>
<p>I am also interested in an IB program for my children. Here is what I have found out so far, specifically, and I stress that, about an IB in my state.
1. The public hs that has been doing it for the longest time (20+ years) seems to achieve the best results, as far as matriculation and passing the diploma exams.
2. Look for the numer of IB courses offered. I think that IB organization has approved close to 35 courses, the more your school offers, the better it is for a student. (the school I am considering offers 30)
3. All schools in my state that offer IB , offer also AP. So you can technically take both. This is especially true in case of students who come to hs ahead academically from their peers. They have two years before the "real" IB classes start in junior year, to pursue AP courses.
4. I always thought that IB is very rigid and boxed about their structure and about the sequence you have to take. Turns out it is not so and many things can be worked into it, including university classes and a year abroad. At least the GC of the school I am investigating claims so.
5. My general impression from reading posts here on CC - AP is understood and applied value at most US colleges, while not all of them, especially below the TOP, will take into consideration your IB diploma. But, if the school is offering an IB route and a student takes "only" AP, GC can't put in your recommendation that you have taken the most difficult course of studies.
6. Definately a better choice if you are considering college outside of US
7. In my opinion , IB is a more well rounded educational option.
8. The hs we are considering, is very diverse, mostly because of an excellent reputation of its IB program. 43 different languages are spoken. Like biblical Babel. I like it for the obvious.</p>
<p>People will have very different opinions in that matter. I think that you have to look more closely at the school itself, not so much at the IB</p>
<p>Good Luck.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>But, if the school is offering an IB route and a student takes "only" AP, GC can't put in your recommendation that you have taken the most difficult course of studies.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Not true--at our high school, if you are in the IB program, the counselors will automatically check the most rigorous box. If you take all AP courses (many of our top courses are AP/IB--the kids are in the same class)--the counselors will examine your coursework and decide whether to check the most rigorous box or not.</p>
<p>What we found in getting college credit for high school classes--no trouble getting college credit for individual AP tests passed; unless you received the IB diploma, no credit for IB classes taken in high school upon passing the test.</p>
<p>I don't like IB as it is done at our local high school. Neither of my high end kids are in the IB program.</p>
<p>Kelowna, thanks for the links. Hadn't seen them until your post as I'm just starting my research. Are IB programs typically offered at large high schools?</p>
<p>Ellemenope, would you elaborate as to how your hs does its IB program?<br>
I'm not only interested the academic aspect of IBs--I'm sure it has an impact on the entire culture of the high school and would influence the entire experience of a hs education. I'm also wondering if it limits involvement in ECs or elective classes.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is IB considered to be superior to AP programs?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Kelowna has helpfully posted links to earlier threads on that contentious question. As I said in at least one of those threads, both IB and AP offer well thought-out curricula, which may or may not be well implemented in particular local schools. I think many high school teachers are not up to teaching courses at the AP or IB level, and on the other hand many fine high school teachers provide good value without having the AP or IB brand names applied to their courses. The one great thing about the AP program is that any learner, even a homeschooler or an autodidact, can take the tests. That's a smart thing to do </p>
<p>even if you don't take an AP course in high school.</p>
<p>At our school:</p>
<p>The Theory of Knowledge class required for IB diploma is taken on a night after school or on a weekend. There doesn't seem to be near enough supervision on the long IB essay. Many of the IB kids give up an EC in their senior year because of the IB workload. IB kids complain about thrashed GPAs and a lot them, at the end of their senior year, opine that if they could live life again, they wouldn't do IB. Needless to say, the IB program is dying at our school.</p>
<p>Plus the IB kids take the AP tests along with the IB tests. What the heck? I like the a la carte aspect to AP testing--with the IB testing, unless you get an IB degree, we found that taking any specific IB class = 0 college credit.</p>
<p>Unless my kid wanted to go to a foreign university for college, I could see no significant upside to the IB program.</p>
<p>Our public school system has a successful, 20 year-old high school IB program. It offers comprehensive IB preparation and its students have been very successful on the IB exam internationally. The district offers IB-preparatory elementary and middle school, although anyone can apply into the high school IB program, provided they have the grades and the discipline. </p>
<p>A word of warning, however: at least in our district, this is a TOUGH, TOUGH program. It is not for everyone. Students have to be very motivated -- it has to be their decision to be there, not the parents'. The classes are tough, the homework very time-consuming: an average of 4 hours of a night. As result, many students have to limit (or give up) high school sports and extracurriculars. Many transfer to other schools before they graduate. At my son's no-fun-a-lot-of-rules science & tech magnet school, there are a lot of transfers from the IB kids. That said, IB juniors & seniors perform well on SAT and ACT tests (the mean ACT score last year was 28) and most get into excellent schools, often with financial aid.</p>
<p>ellemenope wrote:
[quote]
>>But, if the school is offering an IB route and a student takes "only" AP, GC can't put in your recommendation that you have taken the most difficult course of studies.<<</p>
<p>Not true--at our high school, if you are in the IB program, the counselors will automatically check the most rigorous box. If you take all AP courses (many of our top courses are AP/IB--the kids are in the same class)--the counselors will examine your coursework and decide whether to check the most rigorous box or not.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I agree. I was too fast to make a generalization like that. Since the school is very flexible, many kids take university level courses at our flagship in addition to taking APs at school. So I believe that in cases like that, GC will also mark "the most rigorous" box. However, like ellemenope pointed herself, in the case of IB candidate, it is automatic.
At the HS I am describing, Theory of Knowledge class is taken during spring of Junior and fall of Senior year. And personally I also believe that there is way too much hype regarding the essay. 4000 words is not a dissertation after all. Yes, it is supposed to be a research paper, but the subject itself is totally up to the student.
This school brings together some of the best students in the city and the area. Most Ivies admissions ( and I would take a guess that as close as 80% for our state) come from this school. I do not know about workload/homework, but I do not think that it was perceived as excessive by my friends who had their son there. But like I have said before, each school is different.</p>
<p>What katliamom says is almost identical to what I would say about IB as I know it, even though we apparently come from different parts of the country. (I'm from an area where it would be inconceivable to describe a group of kids by their ACT average; almost everyone here takes the SAT instead.)</p>
<p>IB is TOUGH. It is tough even for top kids. More than one-third of the students in my daughter's IB class were National Merit Semifinalists -- and they STILL found it tough. If implemented well, IB is an excellent program that prepares students very well for college, but it is not for everyone -- and not even for everyone who has the ability to succeed in it. </p>
<p>Students with narrowly focused interests may be frustrated by the limited ability to specialize that IB offers. They would be happier in a school that offers a variety of APs, from which they can pick and choose at will. (My son, who refused to even consider IB, was this type of student.) Students with highly time-consuming extracurricular activities may be frustrated by the sheer amount of work that IB requires. Depending on how IB is implemented in a particular school, it may also be a poor choice for a student who wants to be able to do advanced work in multiple sciences (but this differs from program to program). Also, depending on how IB is implemented in a particular school, it may hamper rather than helping students who need to earn good scores on SAT Subject Tests in order to qualify for particular colleges.</p>
<p>I like IB. I especially liked the well-run, well-taught, 20-year-old and highly successful IB program at my daughter's high school. (100% of the students in her class who stayed in the program long enough to attempt the IB tests earned the IB diploma.) It was a good experience for my daughter and for many of her classmates (though not all). But if I were choosing between implementing AP and IB in a high school, I would choose AP. It is more flexible and allows a greater variety of students to participate. It's also easier to implement. A school can start with a few APs and then add more as the program develops. IB is an all-or-nothing proposition.</p>
<p>AP is also the better route to getting college credit and advanced placement in college. When IB students get credit/placement, it is often on the basis of AP exams that they took after completing IB courses. (And taking those extra exams is expensive and annoying.) My daughter, who completed the full IB diploma with scores of 6 or 7 (7 is the highest possible) on all six of her IB exams, got ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIT or advanced placement from her college on the basis of those test scores. However, she also took 8 AP tests (some based on IB courses, others on AP courses that she had taken outside the IB program). She got scores of 4 or 5 (5 is the highest possible) on all of those exams, and received a total of 30 college credits, with either advanced placement or exemptions from requirements in all of the subjects except one (for which she also had to take the college's placement exam). Your results may vary.</p>
<p>We have both at my kids' high school. I am rather disappointed with IB. My dd chose not to do it because she would have been held back in certain subjects (because you can't start IB until grade 11). Also, in her foreign language class which was mixed AP and IB, the teacher said they would follow the AP curriculum because it was harder. Her current AP Chem class is considered the hardest course in the school. </p>
<p>Personally, while I appreciate the global emphasis, I dislike some of the philosophical underpinnings of IB. </p>
<p>That said, I don't think it's a bad program. I'm just not convinced it's better than AP. I am pretty convinced that for my daughter (an excellent writer), IB would have been easier. The emphasis on IB seems to be writing and rhetoric. I am more concerned that anyone would think IB is more rigorous. I think it's just different. (And yes, without ever taking an IB class, my dd took Calculus and took APs in English, Science, Social Studies, Foreign Languages and independent outside research in the humanities.)</p>
<p>By the way, I'm not really willing to argue this. I am just sharing my experience and yes, our local program is well-established.</p>
<p>DS2 is in a competitive admit full diploma IB program. Works his %$#@ tail off. Would not leave for anything (and we have asked). Grades are definitely .2 to .3 lower than what he would be earning with a fraction of the effort at our local HS.</p>
<p>One dirty secret: I have yet to find a college that accepts SL IB exams for college credit. For DS2, the equivalents are AP Calc AB and AP Spanish (since the SL exams required five years of foreign language). So, on top of the IB exams, add APs to cover those two IB topics. Add five or six more IB exams to cover areas of study DS would take no matter what (econ, psych, comp gov't, enviro science, USH, US Gov't). HL exams are taken senior year, which means they won't be useful for college admits -- and these are DS's three strongest areas. Add at least two more APs (English Comp, Euro, maybe Bio) to demonstrate competence in those subjects. Insane...</p>
<p>He also plays a heavy-duty, time-intensive sport, and does debate, Model UN and newspaper. We will see how much of this he can maintain junior and senior year. He is lucky that the other ECs don't really kick in until his sport is finished. The upperclass students at his program are giving him tales of IB reality -- and it makes me wonder what the colleges must think when kids start dropping activities junior year.</p>
<p>I suspect that in the long run, DS2 may take the ton of AP credits, go to a state school that will give him close to soph status (and, we hope, merit $$), and use the credits as a cushion to take a year abroad to study and travel.</p>
<p>I have a slightly different take on IB. DD is a senior in IB, and while stressful at times, finds it very doable with time management. She has always said the key is not to procrastinate. The program at her school is only 5 or 6 years old, so the number of classes could be more, but she has been very satisfied with all of it. It is possible to incorporate AP into it, as she had 2 soph year before IB and 3 Junior Year. She did give up her year round 20+ hour a week club sport April of her Junior year, reason being she did have alot on her plate, 3 AP tests, 2 SL IB tests, SAT I and SAT II's, but also being realistic that she would not be in her sport in college. That being said, now in her senior year, she still has a social life in addition to EC's, senior class officer and a couple of Clubs that she is an officer in. She wanted me to say once more, "Time Management." p.s., every couple of weeks, she collapses in exhaustion and goes to bed at 6 p.m. on a weekend nights, but don't tell her I told you that, she likes to think of herself a a tough cookie! p.p.s., still participates in her sport at HS level also, but only 5 hours/wk now. Yes, you can do IB and have "a life!"</p>
<p>Another thing you may want to look into is the cost of the IB program. My school likes to brag about our impressive IB program, but they do NOTHING to help us out with costs. We are expected to pay for many of our own books and review materials that are not covered in tuition (private school). And while the school pays for half the cost of students' AP tests, they do not contribute anything toward IB. Which is why my parents just wrote a 725 dollar check to the IBO, which doesn't even include the hundreds of dollars of AP and SAT and ACT testing..</p>
<p>This is the mega-post I wrote on the differences between IB and AP programs some time back - the post that I will never, ever write again. ;)</p>
<p>New study from Fordham Foundation just out <a href="http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/APIB.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://www.edexcellence.net/doc/APIB.pdf</a>
Rates both fairly high and pretty close.</p>
<p>Thanks for the link to the Fordham Foundation report. Now I understand better some of the differences between my son's math course (a university program for advanced high school students) and both AP and IB math courses.</p>
<p>That study was interesting. I wonder what the results would be if the IB courses selected had actually been HL courses?</p>
<p>That's a good question 1of42. They did mention the HL courses in the full narrative but I'm guessing they broke out the SLs for the charts for a more direct comparison with AP since those are one year courses.</p>
<p>At our school we only have HL English and HL History (that's one of my complaints, actually, since it biases the GPAs against the math/science kids). Do any of you with kids in US IB programs have SL English and SL History classes? If so, are they available as part of the Diploma Programme or are they only for certificate students?</p>
<p>My son is in a well-established magnet IB program at a public school. They only have HL English and History.
He is a junior now, and there is a lot of work (as there was also in the 9th and 10th grade "pre-IB.") However, it is (so far) doable with reasonable time management. I would say that he averages a couple of hours of homework each night--sometimes less, sometimes a good deal more (especially if he has put something off). I also think he'd be getting higher grades at his "home" high school, but I attribute that to it being a magnet program, not IB v. AP.
We have been very impressed with the program--I would say that it is somewhat like a liberal arts "core curriculum" for high school students. It includes a few elements that aren't in an AP-based program, including a research paper (the Extended Essay), and a mandatory course on the Theory of Knowledge. I do think it is less flexible than AP--at his school, you're either in IB or out--there's no option to take only a few IB courses, as there is with AP. Many colleges will give credit for IB courses, but only for Higher Level courses. At my son's school, many kids will simply take the corresponding AP exam.</p>
<p>DS's IB program has English and History as HL exams -- though I have seen kids at other IB programs report different versions of history courses. The third HL at his school can be in math, physics, bio, foreign language or fine arts. No HL chem. Comp Sci, Econ, Chem and Psych are SL only.</p>
<p>At DS's school, over 90% of the kids in IB get the full diploma. One can't attend intending to just get certificates in a couple of areas.</p>