Apply to Yale SCEA or Huntsman at UPenn ED?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Yale University
1

<p>So, I'm not sure which program to apply to-- anyone have any advice?</p>

<p>I visited Yale last year and basically fell in love, but I recently found out about Huntsman and it seems like an amazing program. My college counselor is encouraging me to apply ED to Huntsman because she says I have a significantly better chance of getting in then than if I wait for regular decision. I really don't know what to do, and obviously I need to decide soon.</p>

<p>My stats::
GPA: 4.57 (W)
Rank: Top 5 (school doesn't rank)
SAT: 2340-----800 CR, 800 W, 740 M (Only took test one time)
SAT 2: 800 Lit, 790 Biology-E, 790 USH, 760 Chemistry
Race: White
State of Residency: OH
Recs: Should be good
Desired Major/Minor- International Relations/English</p>

<p>Main School ECs:
Literary Magazine Editor in Chief (10-12)
School Newspaper Section Editor
Honor Council (11,12), Upper School Council (10), Class President (9)
Academic Team (state-qualifying)
Peer Leadership, Model UN
Tennis, Crew</p>

<p>Other:
Have been learning Mandarin from a tutor for five years</p>

<p>Awards:
Bronfman Youth Fellow
Cum Laude Society
Lots of poetry awards and publications</p>

<p>Work Experience:
Worked as a counselor at a Chinese cultural exchange camp over the summer</p>

2

<p>If you’re pretty confident that you want to go into IR, then Huntsman Penn ED might be a better choice since it’s so highly regarded, unless you’re reluctant to do ED (for financial reasons, etc). All the scores and stats seem to be good so you have as good of a shot as anyone else, especially if you want to specialize in Chinese for Huntsman. </p>

<p>Have you visited UPenn? If you like the school and campus, I think ED would help a lot. Just saying…</p>

3

<p>You would be unwise to apply to anywhere ED if you have to worry about FA, or are not entirely sure you want to attend the school. If you really love Yale, there is a strong chance you’ll regret precluding the possibility of acceptance there should you be accepted ED (as I’m fairly sure you will) by U Penn.</p>

4

<p>You mention that your college counselor thinks your chances are better at Penn ED than at Yale. Is s/he familiar with the Bronfman scholars program? It’s a powerful hook at highly selective colleges. There are several former Bronfman scholars at Yale now.</p>

5

<p>I’m sure the Bronfman works at Penn, too.</p>

<p>The key question is what are you risking if you don’t apply to Penn ED, and what are you gaining. Some of that question is “chances” analysis, and some really depends on how you view your various choices. </p>

<p>In the chances department, the question isn’t whether you lose something on the chance of getting into Huntsman by not applying ED. You do. How much you lose, though, is subject to question. You look like you would be a strong candidate in the spring, too. On the other side of the ledger, what do you gain by not applying to Penn ED? You get a chance – a gamble – that you will be able to attend Yale, which you like more. You look like a strong candidate for Yale, too, but it’s hard to think that you have better than, say, a 25% chance of admission there. (I don’t think SCEA really matters here. If you don’t apply to Penn ED, then of course you will apply SCEA to Yale, but you might not get a real answer from Yale until April.)</p>

<p>So the question is comparing the value of a meaningful, but uncertain shot at Yale to some increase in the chance that you will not be accepted either at Yale or Huntsman (because you could be accepted at Penn, but not to the Huntsman program), and that you would wind up attending a lower choice than either.</p>

<p>From an objective standpoint, there are any number of universities where you can get a great education in IR and Mandarin – two interests that are not exactly obscure. Yale and Penn are among them, but they aren’t the only ones. Provided you apply to an appropriate set of them, you are going to get into some. Really, again from an objective standpoint, you are not likely giving up much if you are forced to attend one of these that isn’t Yale or Penn (Huntsman). You can probably pretty much duplicate the Huntsman program on a self-help basis anywhere, so all you would lose would be the spiffiness of the Huntsman brand vs. whatever other brand you would have.</p>

<p>So this is the question you should ask yourself: Is a 25% chance of attending Yale worth a 25% chance that you will wind up at, say, Johns Hopkins or Cornell (both excellent choices for you)? (It could also be Harvard or Stanford, or Penn without Huntsman, but that doesn’t help the analysis much.) (I should also emphasize that my 25% figure is based on nothing more than attaching a number to “a realistic but less-than-likely possibility”.) For me, that would be really tough – both because Huntsman is a great program, and Penn a great university, so a 25% chance at Yale can’t be worth so much more, and because your lower realistic possibilities are not really much worse than either Yale or Penn/Huntsman. So you wouldn’t be gaining a lot by taking a shot at Yale, but you wouldn’t be risking a lot, either. You may see things differently, though, so do your own analysis.</p>

6

<p>NOOO! Apply SCEA to Yale. Follow your heart.</p>

<p>Penn is fine. Yale is heaven on earth. Your stats are good enough that you shouldn’t apply ED just to improve your chances.</p>

<p>Also, pardon me for not looking for more than 10 secs, but I think you can: a) Apply to Huntsman regular decision :), b) Not be accepted to Huntsman but be accepted to Penn ED and therefore forced to go :(. Enough said.</p>

7

<p>A lot of these posters are giving you misguided advice. A few things to consider:</p>

<p>(1) You will be at best deferred from Huntsman ED because you haven’t taken the SAT II Mandarin.</p>

<p>(2) Huntsman – ED or RD – is more competitive than Yale. It’s a niche, extremely well-qualified applicant pool.</p>

<p>(3) I haven’t heard of the Bronfman Fellowship program before, but unless it’s out-of-this-world prestigious, I don’t think you’ll get into Huntsman. Do recall that half of the spots are reserved for international students, so you’re competing for one of around twenty slots, at least half of which will be taken in the ED round.</p>

<p>(4) I think your chances are much better at Yale, though you’re far from a lock – it’s probable that you’ll be deferred. However, it’s possible that you’ll be accepted. On the other hand, I’ll reiterate – I don’t think you have any shot at Huntsman, especially considering you haven’t taken the SAT II Chinese. And if you don’t get a 770+ on that, forget Huntsman – don’t waste the application fee.</p>

8

<p>IR Junkie is right: You are not in a position to apply ED to Huntsman. You need to take the Mandarin SAT II. You probably need to take the Math Level 2 SAT II, also. (I am surprised you haven’t, since some other colleges in which you may be interested require it.)</p>

<p>I apologize for the bad analysis. I assumed your counselor knew what she was doing.</p>

<p>Looking at your resume again, nothing on it suggests that you actually want to do the business-y, math-y part of the Huntsman program. Maybe you don’t? Maybe you should be concentrating on colleges (including Penn) where you can get good Chinese and good IR, and forget the business part unless you would do that anywhere you went.</p>

<p>At least this seems to make your immediate choice easier. But if you want to consider an RD application to Huntsman, you had better get on those SAT IIs pronto.</p>

<p>IR Junkie: Bronfman Fellowship is probably roughly equivalent to TASP in selectiveness and prestige, and a similar high degree of correlation with elite college admissions. It’s not necessarily so much the achievement that the Fellowship recognizes (i.e., it’s not a Nobel Prize) as that the selection committee is essentially the same kind of people looking at the same kind of criteria with the same standards as the admissions committees, and they tend to reach the same conclusions. Plus it allows kids to do stuff that is meaningful in improving their applications.</p>

9

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<p>This is for all you Bronfman rejects out there on Google. My kid did not get the Bronfman. It was a huge kick in the gut. </p>

<p>He got into Yale, as well as Harvard and Princeton.</p>

10

<p>Man, I really need to be more careful with what I write. </p>

<p>When I said that the committees tend to reach the same conclusions, I meant that the students whose applications and essays knock the socks off the Bronfman committee tend to have the same effect on admissions committees. Not that all people who fall short of that mark are doomed to rejection at ultra-selective colleges. As with TASP, the Bronfman program turns down many more future Ivy Leaguers than it accepts.</p>

11

<p>Does ED actually help your chances at Penn? Doesn’t look like it really gives you all that much of an advantage: [My</a> Analysis: University of Pennsylvania | My Chances.net - College admissions predictions.](<a href=“http://■■■■■■/40dywL]My”>http://■■■■■■/40dywL) However, it certainly restricts you from being able to apply elsewhere. (Also, this is not a huge sample size, but it’s still probably the largest I’ve seen for this kind of data.)</p>

12

<p>Penn accepts fully 50% of its class (and a third of its admittees) from a pool that includes less than 15% of its applicants. It’s hard not to see that as an advantage. Without adjusting for recruited athletes and legaces (for whom ED clearly provides a meaningful advantage), one can’t know how much of an advantage an unhooked applicant gets, and the information to make those adjustments isn’t available. But I think people assume that there is some meaningful advantage.</p>

<p>By “advantage”, I don’t mean that you will get in if you are a borderline candidate. Where it makes a difference is if you are the sort of candidate who is really solid, but not head and shoulders above other strong applicants. There isn’t room for all of you, so lots are going to wind up rejected or waitlisted, essentially on something close to a random basis. In the ED pool, it is a little less random.</p>

13

<p>Thanks to everyone who has posted for all the advice. I realized, however, that some of my information was misleading. If I do end up applying to Huntsman, I won’t be using Mandarin as my target language (I’m almost fluent but not confident enough to take the SAT II for a few months–though I’d like to take advanced classes in it and maybe switch it to my target language if I do end up at Huntsman). Instead, I’ll be using French. I took AP French Language last year and got a 5 on the exam, but I haven’t taken the SAT II. Is that a problem? I’m almost certain that I could get above 700, though.</p>

<p>And I’m planning on taking the Math II on November 7. I looked on the Huntsman website and it said that November scores will make it in time for early decision.</p>

<p>Despite all of this, I think I’m leaning more and more towards Yale. If anyone has any more advice, however, I’d appreciate it. Thanks again!</p>

14

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<p>Yes. That’s a problem, though scoring well on the AP exam partially offsets it. </p>

<p>However, I’ll reiterate what I said earlier: in the same vein as JHS, I don’t think you’re a fit for Huntsman. You have a 2340, which is a fantastic score, but you have the worst 2340 possible for Huntsman. (I’m aware that sounds ridiculous, but it’s true.) A 740 SAT I math puts you at a tremendous disadvantage and almost guarantees your deferral or rejection. </p>

<p>In addition, nowhere in your application do I find even an inkling of serious devotion to business. Remember that Huntsman is a program that specializes in the intersection of IR and business. Without a passion for business, you’re not a serious contender for the program.</p>

<p>I think you should go for Yale. You have a decent chance of acceptance, which is all you can really ask for as an unhooked candidate.</p>

15

<p>I think that you should apply to Yale SCEA. You said it yourself that you fell in love with the community upon first visit. By applying to Yale, you also have the option to apply anywhere else you’re interested in RD. It will also give you time to strengthen your resume for more selective programs like Huntsman (the dual-degree programs at Penn are very selective, Wharton is about 10% acceptance and the dual-degrees don’t even list their acceptance percentages). Besides, if you love a school, why would you put yourself in a situation where you might not have the opportunity to apply? Keep all options open, go Yale EA.</p>

16

<p>^ Wow, this must be dumb question, but does Huntsman really emphasize your math score that much? I assume AP would be important, but the SAT, too? </p>

<p>Would somebody care to explain more on Huntsman credentials? I never thought that a 740 would automatically put you in the deferral/rejection pile…?</p>

17

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<p>Remember that Huntsman is a dual degree between the College and Wharton – and Wharton cares a lot about math. Someone compiled a list of the accepted ED Whartonites on CC, and the middle 50% of their SAT math scores was 770 - 800. Another list was compiled of the accepted RD Whartonites, and I think the distribution was 780 - 800. (I can’t find the list at the moment. If someone has it on hand, please do post it.)</p>

<p>I was exaggerating in that a 740 won’t automatically send you to the reject pile, but it will require something incredible to offset it. The OP doesn’t have anything to counterbalance his math score, so it’s very likely that he would be deferred or rejected.</p>

18

<p>^ Kind of sad given the trivial differences between a mid/high 700s score and an 800 score in the math section.</p>

19

<p>^</p>

<p>The difference is between two and four questions, which – in the context of the SAT math – is a lot. I mean, seriously, if you can’t ace SAT math, the Wharton curve will crush you.</p>

<p>According to a former admissions officer that frequents CC, 50% of Wharton’s entering class has an 800 on the math section of the SAT.</p>

20

<p>^ a 740 is usually 2 questions wrong out of 54. Once again, seems kind of silly that adcoms actually believe that they can discern math skills between one with an 800 on math and one with a mid/high 700s on math (1-2 wrong). Acing the section isn’t a question of aptitude but rather meticulousness. One missed word in a question, and all of the sudden you’re that much worse at math.</p>

<p>I do think OP should have taken the math SATII if he/she wanted to go Huntsman ED. But I nevertheless think that adcoms lean too heavily on a section that is direly flawed…Even if there are few other options for measuring math skills.</p>