<p>I'm a senior at UC Berkeley and plan to apply to law school after working about 1 to 2 years and was wondering if taking an extra semester's worth of classes to bump my gpa to a 3.65 from a 3.6 would be worth it. I basically had a bad string of luck with 2 professors, in my 6 and 7th semester to boot which really hurts. I want to attend Columbia or Duke law, and made a 178 on my LSAT.</p>
<p>I have read in certain places that each point on the LSAT is worth about .6 gpa points, but I'm not sure how accurate that is.</p>
<p>Would it be worth it for me to stay a 9th semester to possibly pump up my gpa (a random A minus would of course be disastrous) or are there other things I can do after college to strengthen my application. I know its mainly a numbers game to get into law school, and if I can't do anything to help myself for those schools, what law schools would be about my level?</p>
<p>Americanski, based on the few bits you know about him, you really think he's "probably" going to get into Harvard? There''s a lot more to the application than what has been presented, and it seems like you think it's much easier getting into top law schools that it really is.</p>
<p>Have you looked at this, college senior? The good news- your LSAT is much higher than the average LSAT of where those schools accept coming from Berkeley. The bad news- your GPA is significantly lower than those who have gotten into the schools you're interested in from Berkeley. Some say schools weight one factor more than another- do you (or anyone) happen to know if Columbia or Duke put more weight into GPA or LSAT?</p>
<p>Again, I don't understand your evaluations. With these two numbers, the GPA seems to be a limiting factor. A 178/3.6 is a great combination, and college senior, I'd be quite happy with that if I get it, oh my, ecstatic, but it doesn't seem to appear to give you a fifty fifty chance at Harvard law out of Berkeley. </p>
<p>There are schools that seem more statistically difficult to get into, and you put Boalt on a list of schools which he may not able to get into- a school that supposedly values the LSAT more than GPA (so I've read on a few thread before). I think you underestimate the difficulty of getting admitted, or I don't understand how much a 178 LSAT score can do for you.</p>
<p>Those are great stats. The LSAT is above average, even at Harvard, while the GPA is a little low. Regarding the original question, your year or two of work experience will be more beneficial to your app than the extra .5 in your GPA. </p>
<p>Look at lawschoolnumbers.com , you'll see how others with your stats did at the schools you're interested in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Again, I don't understand your evaluations. With these two numbers, the GPA seems to be a limiting factor.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A 3.6 is not really "limiting" at all. I don't see how you can possibly think that this is the case. Look at LSN and see how many people with numbers comparable to this guy's that Harvard actually rejects. It's well less than half of them. Unless he writes an absolutely atrocious PS or is a felon, he will probably get in.</p>
<p>
[quote]
There are schools that seem more statistically difficult to get into, and you put Boalt on a list of schools which he may not able to get into- a school that supposedly values the LSAT more than GPA
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Are you talking about Boalt? If so, this is totally wrong. Boalt is easily the biggest GPA whore in the top 14. It's not even close. That's the only reason he might not get in. Yale and Stanford are very small and consequently able to reject a lot of people with numbers like these.</p>
<p>Yes, but from which schools did these students come? Devo, when I made my post, I went to that page and looked at the Boalt page and the Harvard page. One thing the website definitely does not show is from where the various acceptencees are coming from. I personally think this is a large factor. Law schools seem much more willing to accept students lower GPAs from certain schools than others, even given the same LSAT. I think it significantly has to do with other factors of the application, for instance letters of rec, but I think students coming from certain schools is a big factor. The career center stats show Berkeley students (but only averages, unfortunately). I think that's a better indication overall, although lawschoolnumbers.com is also helpful in some ways.</p>
<p>The school you're coming from is virtually irrelevant. I can't imagine what makes you think that they'll care at all that he's coming from Berkeley. The Berkeley career page is next to worthless because it doesn't give any detail about the students that were accepted.</p>
<p>Does it give any more information than you got from college senior, the information with which you gave him a 50/50 chance of getting into Harvard? </p>
<p>Where you went to school does matter. At the least, there seems to be a trend that some students with lower average GPAs get into some places where students from other schools and higher average GPAs do not get in. I'll prove it later- I don't feel like it right now.</p>
<p>While I believe the numbers are the biggest factor BY FAR, logic tells me Harvard would take a student from a top/prestigious school as opposed to a less prestigious school IF the stats were the same.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Does it give any more information than you got from college senior, the information with which you gave him a 50/50 chance of getting into Harvard?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No, it doesn't really. The Berkeley page is really not that helpful. The LSN info is much more useful.</p>
<p>
[quote]
At the least, there seems to be a trend that some students with lower average GPAs get into some places where students from other schools and higher average GPAs do not get in.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I doubt there's a significant difference at all if you control for LSAT scores. Maybe a 3.6 in food studies at Hamburger University wouldn't be looked at in the same light as a 3.6 in physics at CalTech, but I don't think the school is going to matter here, even if you have some pet theory about the wildly disparate standards that Harvard arbitrarily holds people from different schools to.</p>
<p>
[quote]
While I believe the numbers are the biggest factor BY FAR, logic tells me Harvard would take a student from a top/prestigious school as opposed to a less prestigious school IF the stats were the same.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, maybe, but what school they went to is probably going to be pretty far down on the list of tie-breaking variables. Since so few people have numbers this high, it's probably not going to be an issue.</p>
<p>This is the original poster again on a different handle.</p>
<p>I realize that my lsat score is very high, but my gpa is very low as well as well as on the downturn from my first 2 years here because of those 2 c's. The lower end of gpa at harvard and yale is a 3.7 I believe and thats just the lower end where you find very interstsing people with hooks (minority group, different profession such as Marine Officer and whatnot).</p>
<p>My score is about the 99.91 percentile which means about 150 people made my score, but about 1500 people make a 170 and above every year anyways. Probably a few thousand people at least have my gpa.</p>
<p>I do not believe I have any of those hooks and thats why I listed Duke and Columbia as my top choices. I am from an over-represented minority group (asian, duh) and my parents are middle class (though it happened only recently, applications seem to not take this into account). </p>
<p>I do not want to think of myself as a lock for any of them because I've had bad experiences with ec activites at berkeley and thus don't have much to put on my resume in that regard, nor have I made any real connections here to get a good job after college and so am worried whether the job I get will matter for law school. And Columbia (easy to connect with firms as well as the highest clerkship placement after harvard, yale) is really my dream school right now and it seems about selective as the harvards and yale, only a little less so. </p>
<p>I believe a sterling 9th semester would help offset the downward turn in my grades as well as raise my index score for law school. Looking at Berkeley's numbers, I didn't think its really possible for me to get into somewhere like harvard or yale even with my lsat score, even the schools I listed would be a reach. The people from Berkeley seem to have a 4.0+ and a 172+ to get into the biggest scores. Since I do not have any really outstanding ec's I don't think I have a chance, and only a half shot at maybe duke at best. From what it seems from Berkeley's page, even people who got into duke had a 168 and a 3.8 which is higher than my gpa.</p>
<p>Anyways, if I'm not going to take a 9th semester, I am more curious now to what kind of jobs or internships for someone without too much experience after college can make a good jumping start to a law career and a good law school?</p>
<p>what are you complaning about? u got a 178 LSAT. Apply, youll get in even with a "subpar" (If you can even call it that) GPA. LSAT is worth totally more then the GPA, and although ur GPA is in the 25th % range (or below) ur LSAT is in the top 99%. Dont complain ,just apply</p>
<p>The real thing I wanna know is how did u study for the LSAT</p>
<p>This is ridiculous. Do you think you need a 4.0/180 to get into Harvard? They have plenty of 4.0/169s to take care of their GPA numbers. They turn down very, very few people with 178s.</p>
<p>I'm just very good at legal thinking I guess. It was always a natural fit for me. </p>
<p>I approached it the same way I did the SAT. I made around 1500-1550 to begin with on a bunch of practice tests. I went back and looked back at the mistakes I made which was basically the high-end analogies. I tried to figure out what my mistake was (not forming a sentence) and what the analogy wanted and fixed all my mistakes and fixed them. I then drilled myself for vocabulary and time over a couple of weeks, and ended up with a 1600.</p>
<p>I was downtrodden on my Law school chances because I had a very high SAT score but was only about top 3-4% at my school and I ended up at Berkeley, so I figured GPA is most important as it was for college apps. I dunno how the SAT works but I'm pretty sure only about 1000 people get like 1600's a year and the law school numbers game would be the same.</p>
<p>Basically I started out making generally around 160-170 to begin with as well, and I just did a lot of practice tests and went back and looked at mistakes. Figuring out your mistakes is key, and not making them again as well. Also, if you retake the same test again a few months later, its like taking it the first time on the hard problems (at least for me) so I saw if I made the same mistakes again which I generally did not. Of course, law is much more complex than the SAT's so results may vary. I don't think studying for the LSAT will help much if you just "don't get it." Getting your reading speed up is also key IMO. I think I just maxed my potential; I didn't really improve any of my reasoning abilities.</p>
<p>Also, luck is a factor. My friend only scored about 165's on all her practices but got a 175 on the real one. I think I may have gotten a little helo from lady luck. I've also read the scores have been rebalanced slightly downward each year as well. </p>
<p>Hope that was of help.</p>
<p>I guess I feel better now about my chances, looking at Berkeley's numbers and my previous experiences with college apps, you can see why I was trying to be realistic.</p>
<p>Obviously, one LSAT point is not worth 0.6 GPA points - because an extra 10 LSAT points corresponds to more GPA than you can fit on a 4.0 scale.</p>
<p>While I usually recommend that people raise their GPAs as much as possible, I don't think that's applicable in your case. I have a friend with almost identical stats who is currently at HLS. (He had an extra 1 point on the LSAT - we say that he did an Elle Woods.) </p>
<p>I really don't think that a 3.56 v. a 3.6 would help out much - it's not like you're going from a 3.1 to a 3.3 or something. </p>
<p>If you are going to spend that time in school, get a master's - which would help you stand out a lot more than an extra 0.04 points on your GPA. That would also help to offset the downturn in your grades (assuming you did well in your master's). Better hook, IMO. Actually, almost anything is a better "hook" - not that they are very important, but I don't think the slight GPA increase is going to take you out of the big "maybe" pile and put you into the admit pile. Given that you're in the "maybe" pile at a lot of schools, why not try to stand out among that group?</p>
<p>Apply to more schools than you think you'll need to. If you have a split (high of one, low of the other), you're going to get more erratic results. My friend got into Harvard, Columbia, waitlisted at Georgetown, into Chicago (I think)... you get the picture. Know someone else with slightly lower stats (but an engin. with a master's) who was waitlisted at Cornell but offered merit at Chicago. Trust me, the extra few hundred bucks in application fees is well worth it if you end up getting merit aid or into a better school.</p>
<p>Right, but from what I've read, your LSAT and GPA just get combined into an index with each being worth about half. I read that if you're in the average range of most top schools, which is 170, 3.8, each extra LSAT is worth about .006 on your gpa. So you can get like a 174 and have a 3.7 and still be about equal. Its very rare that anyone would get a 180 really, (only like what, 15 people) so it helps balance that out.</p>
<p>Also LSAT index counts A+ as a 4.3 so you can indeed have above a 4.0 as it shows in the linked berkeley stats place. Most people that got into harvard from berkeley had about a 3.93 and a 172 if I recall. Thats only a 6 point difference and I read that its just blindly combined into a linear index number so the 178 wouldn't really translate into the final index score.</p>
<p>So someone with a 180 and 4.3 (I know at least Stanford offers them) would be a for sure admit.</p>
<p>Just my 2 cents, but yeah, I plan to apply to other places. I really want to get a good clerkship though (there are only so many Federal districts), and Duke and Columbia seem to have the highest percentage to go onto clerkships.</p>
<p>Not even Stanford is going to give a student all A+s. For general trends, lawschoolnumbers.com is a good indicator, Amerinski. I don't think anybody thinks a 4.3 and 180 is necessary or required for admittance to Harvard, Stanford, Yale, or any law school.</p>