AP's -- a scam!?

Test Preparation
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<p>vaish:
i don't know what your AP scores are, but if you got 5 in all your APs with "going to a couple review sessions and maybe looking over some practice problems the night before" and nothing else, then I don't have anything to say. But seriously, I doubt your claim b/c you yourself siad you "stressed about the test" meaning you probably studied. And studying the material is learning. Ok, if not, what's the definition of learning for you? </p>

<p>If it's going into one material in depth, I agree that APs don't do it. But I think HS is time for you to get the feel for many areas and cover more breadth than depth. In college, you'll be able to cover specifics in courses on "Women's Movement" or "Optics." </p>

<p>And one more thing.. why did you take it if you're so against it?</p>

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<p>i agree about breadth not depth but i didnt get that. anyways i have to run somewhere now. but i did want to say one mroe thing...shoot what was it? oh yeah, i came to this decison in April so i had signed up already, and had already taken 4 tests. later</p>

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<p>""The true scam of the AP tests is what some people have touched upon here - it's knowing the design of the test rather than actually learning the material." that's from the article you quoted.</p>

<p>Elitist? I may live in the OC but I have nowhere near as much money as my neighbors. In fact, I qualify for full need-based scholarships, from every college. Yeah, you may argue that it’s good because it forces some schools to be advanced. But couldn’t we force schools to teach advanced material – without the standardized testing? Yes. And that would be better because standardized testing can never cover the breadth and depth of college mid-terms and finals. </p>

<p>“Basically, not to personally attack you, but your view is elitist and is the opposite of the experience of most students. Read the article and you will see what I am talking about.” I made a disclaimer – it depends on what college you go to. I specified upper tier. So maybe that’s elitist. Whatever. And the fact that there are a) people who are changing and b) colleges are depending and caring less and less about AP and c) people agree with my position demonstrate that most people have this experience! I still think that these schools can be encouraged (with federal grant money from worthless No Child Left Behind, oh, oops that’s not getting it’s grant money either…) to teach advanced courses – but not to standardized tests or with those narrow ‘course guidelines’ in mind. "</p>

<p>We possibly could institute college level, though nonAP classes, but it is doubtful. Again, most schools would not have advanced classes without APs, for one reason or another. I am just pragmatic about the situation, while you think it possible to have AP level classes without the AP. APs are an improvement over the alternative, regular classes. I say you are elitist in that you attend a great school, a school where every single teacher is great, every class taught by able teachers who will have a great class whether its AP, IB, regular, or honors. I am not saying you are rich, just that you may not know the relative weaknesses of the majority of schools, and neither do I. But, based on what I have read, the AP's are a boon for nearly everyone, just in this small audience, where people go to schools with tens of APs, and forced to overload, are criticizing the system. </p>

<p>Yes, overloading on APs can be detrimental to education, but most students are taking far less. One study said that APs help prepare kids for college, even among those who fail the test. I think everyone is focusing too much on the test, and too little on the class itself. ebonytears, to remind you, CollegeConfidential is nowhere near the representative of the general student population.</p>

<p>Yes, Colleges care less about the AP test, but still care about the class itself. Colleges value the rigor of your classes, and at most schools APs are the most rigorous.</p>

<p>The elitist remark was based on the highschool, not the college you attend.
I dont think people disagree all that much; its just a matter of skewed perspectives. At Exeter, the AP designation may be pointless, because the class quality is already outstanding. This is not the case at most schools, and that is where the AP program is beneficial.</p>

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<p>I think the biggest mistake you made is the one you accuse me of: generalizing. "Again, most schools would not have advanced classes without APs, for one reason or another." What are the reasons? Can you specify? Why is this so impossible? Is it because of a lack of able faculty? Because that's not a function of AP exams or classes. If the faculty aren't capable, no matter what course they teach - Honors or AP - the class will not be profitable/rigorous/educational/etc.</p>

<p>"I think everyone is focusing too much on the test, and too little on the class itself. ebonytears, to remind you, CollegeConfidential is nowhere near the representative of the general student population." I also specify support from colleges in discrediting the exams, and among people across the country. If people weren't concerned, would there be a debate? Would there be a newspaper article published? I think not.</p>

<p>"Yes, Colleges care less about the AP test, but still care about the class itself. Colleges value the rigor of your classes, and at most schools APs are the most rigorous."</p>

<p>That is a horrible generalization. APs are not necessarily the most rigorous. At some high schools, the teachers may be incredible and even the D students get 4 or 5s. On the other hand, there may be horrible grade inflation or horrible teaching and the majority of the students don't even pass. Colleges have a hard time - and must look to your scores - because AP Chemistry at one school is not necessarily equal in rigor or subject matter than in another. In fact, what prevents an Honors class from being more rigorous than an AP? I've found my Honors English class - taught by a Yale graduate - much harder than my APUSH class. And the discrepency here is not because one is "AP" and the other is simply "Honors" (we don't have 2 AP English courses at my school, only Lit is offered) but because of the quality of teacher.</p>

<p>So it is absolutely likely that a teacher who currently teaches AP can teach an equally difficult course if it were just labeled "Honors" - or even "Advanced" - and have a focus on the subject matter, and more freedom with the material - and more flexibility with regards to time, and teaching methods. IT IS THE TEACHER THAT MAKES THE CLASS DIFFICULT - even at high school, it's not really "are you taking APUSH" it is "who do you have for APUSH?". </p>

<p>The AP program is not beneficial if there are not qualified teachers. It isn't beneficial in and out of itself, but in how it is taught and who teaches it. We can have honors classes that may be even more beneficial.</p>

<p>"Colleges value the rigor of your classes, and at most schools APs are the most rigorous." </p>

<p>They also look at your school record - it may not be so rigorous if students they have previously admitted are doing poorly. Or if most people got a 2 on that exam. GPAs and grades ARE NOT EQUAL. they differ for each HIGH SCHOOL. </p>

<p>"but most students are taking far less. One study said that APs help prepare kids for college, even among those who fail the test."</p>

<p>You could do this with honors classes, provided the better teachers. The 'AP' label does not make the difference.</p>

<p>" APs are an improvement over the alternative, regular classes." You can not ensure that everywhere. It is way too broad of a claim. It may not be true everywhere. It all depends on the TEACHER.</p>

<p>"I say you are elitist in that you attend a great school, a school where every single teacher is great, every class taught by able teachers who will have a great class whether its AP, IB, regular, or honors."</p>

<p>How do you know? I may go to crap school. Don't assume. Every single teacher is NOT great at any school. And definitely not at mine. (But we would all think that, yes?)</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I read in a recent WSJ article about crossroads dropping the APs either a quote or the article itself, that schools cannot afford to design their own college level classes. APs fill this niche.</p></li>
<li><p>This is a vast minority, as stated in the Washington Post article. Again, the people complaining are the only ones who can afford to do something about it.</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, grade inflation is an issue, but it is with any class. Yes, it ultimately does come down to a good teacher. But, teachers will be compelled to cover more. For instance, I plan to take the chemistry SAT II. However, my chemistry class has not covered all the requisite material. I know that, had it been an AP, more material would have been covered, even though the teacher is quite lazy. Again, in the Wall Street Journal, or maybe the MSNBC/Newsweek highschool ranking, a teacher said that APs are an incorruptible standard, forcing teachers to do more. Another example from personal experience, again tied to an SATII. I took honors bio, and the corresponding SAT II. I didnt do too well (660), yet I know that I would have done better had the class been an AP, because the same teacher teaches a much more rigorous AP class, but in 12th grade. The APs force a standard on the teacher, who might otherwise be lazy.</p></li>
<li><p>Again, an honors distinction is quite arbitrary, while an AP is not. It is all about the standard. Honors classes at different schools have widely varying levels of difficulty. Nothing prevents an honors class from being harder, thats just common sense. I am speaking in general terms. Yes, the AP label does not necessarily make much of a difference but it usually will. In my case, APs prepared me for SAT IIs, where regular honors classes did not. Yes, you <em>could</em> do this with honors classes, but its less likely to happen because the teachers do not need to push you that hard, unlike in an AP class. APs by definition are better than the other classes, but obviously a terrific teacher supersedes that. I am making a generalization</p></li>
</ol>

<p>My view heavily colored by my current experience. In my math class, we are going half the speed that we could be going. While the math is not AP level anyway, the imposition of a standard would increase the pace, and to a certain extent force students to take more responsiblity.
In my chemistry class, due to the ineptness of the class and the laziness of the teacher we are going at an abysmal rate. Same as above. The standards force teachers to construct a more rigorous course. </p>

<p>Yes you may argue this is overly generalized, or it comes down to the teacher. But even the bad teachers recognize they must lift the difficulty of the class, and lots of the time the best teachers teach the AP courses, because those teachers choose the classes they want to teach. </p>

<p>The only way you look at this IS by generalizing, because you are looking at so many different schools.</p>

<p>Your whole argument is based on the idea that the AP designation is meaningless and it depends on the teacher. But if you are determined to describe general trends, you must can forget about good vs. bad teachers for a second, and strictly compare the effect of APs, which has shown to be beneficial.</p>

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<p>"Your whole argument is based on the idea that the AP designation is meaningless and it depends on the teacher. But if you are determined to describe general trends, you must can forget about good vs. bad teachers for a second, and strictly compare the effect of APs, which has shown to be beneficial."</p>

<p>Where has it shown to be beneficial? Who gets the benefits? I don't think you get my generalization argument. Where has it been shown to be beneficial? Oh, non-AP students get a taste of college even if they get a 2. Yeah, so what is the real-life application, the impact of that? That they are "better prepared for college"? And how do you measure that? Grades. Does taking more AP correlate with better grades in college? NO. So there is NO IMPACT. It is not shown to be beneficial. THERE IS NO PLUS TO TAKING AP. "college level classes. " Why do you need them? Once again, high school is high school. Plus, these aren't even college-level classes, nor are they similar to the college experience. So any 'benefit' you claim doesn't exist, AND isn't really a benefit. </p>

<p>If you want to talk about classism, the people who get the benefits are the rich people - who can afford the prep and the exam. The schools that cannot afford to create their own college class curriculum (they can adopt AP, they just don't have to follow it carte blanche) are probably the same ones that have a) bad teachers anyway so any AP classes will be crap and b) kids who can't afford AP tests and thus AP credit and thus AP enrollment goes down - which leads to less AP classes offered. </p>

<p>your whole argument is about an assumption. That if you took AP Chem, you would've done better. If you took AP Bio, you could've done better. First, you can study yourself. The problem with the tests is that you don't even need the class. I self-studied AP and SAT II World History Freshman Year and got a 5 and 770. Respectable scores. </p>

<p>Second, once again IT IS NOT ENSURED. Do AP teachers have to teach the curriculum? Yeah. Do they have to teach it well? No. Can they literally just make you do it yourself out of a book? Yes. Because that's what they do in college, so if you really want a college-level course - here's a book, there are in class discussions and in class tests and that's all the teaching you'll get from me. That's what my APUSH teacher did. </p>

<p>So if you don't have the motivation to self-study in the first place, whether or not you take AP WILL NOT MATTER. </p>

<ol>
<li>This is a vast minority, as stated in the Washington Post article. Again, the people complaining are the only ones who can afford to do something about it.</li>
</ol>

<p>You ignore my argument about colleges. If it is such a vast minority, why are colleges chopping off AP credit? Also, I would argue that it would save money to cut APs - especially to the financially disadvantaged students. </p>

<p>"But, teachers will be compelled to cover more." Yeah. And what if they don't want to? They may have to, but that doesn't ensure that they have to do a good job and make sure you understand. Forcing them just makes it worse. You don't let the teacher be comfortable teaching in their own style - that translates into even worse teaching.</p>

<p>"4. Again, an honors distinction is quite arbitrary, while an AP is not. It is all about the standard. Honors classes at different schools have widely varying levels of difficulty." YES AND AP CLASSES AT DIFFERENT SCHOOLS HAVE WIDELY VARYING LEVELS OF DIFFICULTY AS WELL. Just replace the word Honors with AP. The material needed to be covered may be more comprehensive - but that just means there is intense cram time right before APs where you cover 60 years of US History in 2 weeks. Is that educational? No. Do you learn from that? No. That doesn't make it any more beneficial; it just makes it needlessly harder because it doesn't really help at all. You still are unclear about those last 60 years you rushed through. AP teachers may be 'likely' but not always. They may just not care. "but it usually will." Again, a generalization. It may mean nothing. You learn a lot more from Honors US History at my school than AP - we were at 1900s the week of the AP exam, and are still there right now. My teacher goes off on tangents ALL THE TIME. It doesn't mean anything. It just means you rush through everything at the end because there is so much material. All the AP people can testify to this. There is a lot of stuff on the boards about cramming in stuff they didn't cover in class. Just cuz it's AP doesn't mean everything gets covered - or even covered well. </p>

<p>You contradict yourself with the generalized arguments. And you are non-responsive to them. "But even the bad teachers recognize they must lift the difficulty of the class, and lots of the time the best teachers teach the AP courses, because those teachers choose the classes they want to teach." Not really. What about teachers who don't get to choose? Or the small exemptions? Do we just not care about them? And bad teachers lifting difficulty? Come on. They're bad teachers. Just cuz the level of material is harder doesn't mean they automatically become better teachers. Your definition of a bad teacher is that they're slow. That's what you get for being in CP. You get stuck with people WHO NEED TO GO SLOWER, because that's just how they learn. My definition of a bad teacher is one who not only goes slow - like my APUSH - but just doesn't teach. In fact, your bad teacher may be a good teacher. If most of the class is "inept" he/she can't go faster only for you. They have to adapt to help the majority of the class. Sorry, but this is a democracy. A bad teacher can't teach, period. And adding more material and a time limit will only AGGRAVATE the abysmal level of education. </p>

<p>You never show beneficiality. I show it's not. I talk about how it makes people learn the test instead of the material. Teachers often don't cover all the material in time, or cram it in in the last week. That doesn't help. APs force more competition and so people are overloaded, and begin to hate learning. School is supposed to develop appreciation for knowledge, not contempt for it. I talk about how you don't get credit at colleges. How they aren't really college classes. How they are inadequate preparation for upper division courses at college - so you have to take it over anyway at college - and ouch, what a waste of money and time.</p>

<p>You never demonstrate any benefits of APs. </p>

<p>The only one I can think of is that it forces you to know how to self-study. Because most teachers will expect that out of you if it is a "college level course." And that's ALL you do in college. But that is the only skill - a study skill - you don't necessarily get proper knowledge of the subject. That's the only benefit, and it's not unique to APs at all.</p>

<p>Oh yes. And APs and standardized testing suck on a more general level because they marginalize the socio-economically disadvantaged. Yeah, they give you some money to take APs (which are like 85 a test, not including any prep or books), but there is a CAP EVERY YEAR THAT RUNS OUT BY LIKE JANUARY. APs suck like that too.</p>

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<p>What is CP? I am in all the highest classes at my school except english, and yet the kids in my class are still pretty stupid, and drag down the class. I do a fair amount of independent study. I self studied for world history SAT II after taking AP euro, also, , and got a 720 after using the wrong prep book (kaplans). I self studied 33-50%+ (the rest I had learned in class) of IIC material and got a 760, and am retaking it. I self studied for the SAT, like most CC people here, did not take classes or use a tutor, but bought and used 2 books, and got a 2330 (800m). My whole year in Algebra II seemed like independent study. I am in a religious school, forced by my parents. I just wasnt motivated enough to study enough for biology, because it consists of more memorization than even history. The school, though decent, has/had some bad science/math teachers and classes. For some reason, my class is nearly devoid of smart people compared to the senior class. This has forced a couple of my teachers, namely science and math ones, to go slower. It just so happens that these are the most important ones, because I intend to major in engineering.
You still admit that I wouldve done better had I been in the corresponding AP class.
<a href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7773524/site/newsweek/page/2/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7773524/site/newsweek/page/2/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"some large studies, such as an analysis by the National Center for Educational Accountability of Texas state-college data, suggest that even students who do poorly on AP tests have significantly higher college-graduation rates than those who do not take AP tests at all. In public schools where average parental income is low and minority students are numerous, enthusiasm for AP and IB has never been greater. "Only 17 percent of our parents have attended college," says Brian Rodriguez, the AP coordinator at Encinal High School in Alameda, Calif., "but AP has had a tremendous impact here, as we regularly send kids to Stanford, Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Berkeley and UCLA who never would have had a chance to go there even six years ago."
"
So, apparently it is not that biased against low income students.</p>

<p>What does it matter that you cram in the last week? You wouldnt have gotten that far in an honors class anyway. In both my AP histories, we ended up covering either 50 or 100 years in the last week. The class will be forced to skip some things, and there is the drop in quality. But the kids can study independently, which is what happens. </p>

<p>I really need the WSJ article about crossroads, to show what I'm talking about, but i dont have access.</p>

<p>I dont feel like responding further, because its too cumbersome to continue. I would argue if it was in person, but its not.</p>

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<p>Does taking AP classes and not their respective exams harm you in the admission process?</p>

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<p>no colleges dont care about your ap scores</p>

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<p>So just taking AP classes and not taking their exam is fine, provided that I take ALOT of AP courses and get As all of them?</p>

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<p>Interesting Q.<br>
THe AP scores might matter if you're looking at some of the AP scholarships (simiens, i think) and/or the collegeboard's AP awards.<br>
I somehow regret starting this huge debate, cuz I'm ecstatic that I finished this year's biggest goal, quite successfully. WOHOOO</p>

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<p>is it crucial for college admissions?</p>

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<p>idk. that'd be my question. It can't...hurt though.</p>

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<p>AP scores don't matter for college. Usually you send them with your transcript and they end up at the registrar, you would need your college counser to send them a note with your scores, or the form needs a place for them. SAT II's are much more important, and much more meaningful. How do I compare a kid that got a 5 and a 4, maybe one person had a raw score of 100/150 and the other 97/150. Or two 5's, maybe one was 140/150 and the other 100/150. Theres too much gray area to weigh it one, unlike the Sat II where missing more than 2 will usually lower your score out of the 800 range.</p>

<p>Obviously sending in 3 5's won't hurt you, but I wouldn't send in any 4's, at least i'm not going to.</p>

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<p>it it true that you can "hide" your AP scores from the colleges you apply to?</p>

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<p>yep, for a fee.
But if you're hiding it, I would only hide the ones you've self studied; it'd look suspicious if you hide for a class that you've taken.</p>

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<p>tbry23m, as I recall, according to the real SAT IIs book, you can miss like 10 on physics and still receive an 800.</p>

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<p>I don't think APs are a scam, but more of a big bargain.
You are getting college credit at a much lower cost than taking the class in college. If the college you want to attend doesn't offer credit for the course, don't take that course, unless you want a head start. </p>

<p>APs are flexible because you aren't required to take every course, so just take the courses you want to for whatever purpose you have and then it isn't a scam. You're doing AP because you want to.</p>

<p>If you're using APs as a way to compete against other people, you have the wrong idea. APs should be taken because you like that subject or you want to get rid of the credit when you get into college.</p>

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<p>I really find this a useless discussion. You have a choice whether to take AP tests or not and beleive me, all they do is validate the rigor of your courseload in high school. However, if your main purpose of signing up for AP classes and tests is to save $$$$ by getting college credit, I would say that is very wise. If you don't get credit for the course in your respective college or university, hey it's an easy A there. :)</p>

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<p>AP tests are validated by giving them to college students who have received various grades in comparable college courses. If only 60 percent correct on the item content of an AP test gets you a 5, that suggests that a college student who got an A in a comparable college course wouldn't necessarily do better on the AP test item content--which I think is very plausible.</p>