<p>D is in a class with a great teacher who routinely has one of the highest percentages of students score 4's and 5's on the AP Exam in May. The problem is that many of these same students receive a "C" in his class. Anecdotally, I have learned that students revere this teacher and parents do not! I am concerned that this imbalance may raise eyebrows with some AdComs that might think that the students are lazy, as sometimes occurs when low GPA students attain high admission test scores. What do you think?</p>
<p>I think you should be talking to the teacher. He, I am sure, can spell out clearly how he grades the students. Kids talk and it is not ucommon for a student to explain away a poor grade by saying that the teacher "always" does X Y or Z. Arm yourself with the teachers' grading policies and you will know if those students really were "lazy" or if his grading policies are really make it difficult for a good student to do well.</p>
<p>Thanks, but the teacher seems to be an egomaniac. He actually told me that his is the hardest class at the school and that it is better to get a "C" in his class than an "A" or "B" in any other history class. My concern is that D's class rank and GPA might suffer AND some AdComs will presume she is lazy is she does not get an "A" or "B" in the class and scores a "5" on the Exam in May. </p>
<p>More worrisome is the lost scholarship dollars. I'm a single dad and D will need to get LOTS of merit aid because my small business "profit margin" will not look good on FAFSA, etc., etc.</p>
<p>Yikes!! since you already talked to the teacher and it seems the rumors are well founded can you go to the pricipal and ask for some sort of audit of the grading procedures? </p>
<p>If it makes you feel any better, my daughters' APUSH teacher is notorius for handing out the As and Bs and having an exceedingly low pass rate. Just 5 last year out of 28 which is about average for him. Don't know which is worse but I do know that for many of the selctive school rigor trumps GPA. Good Luck!</p>
<p>If this is the teacher's common practice, and the teacher has been around for a while, there is probably some store of experience and lore about whether the effect you fear has been suffered by students in previous years.</p>
<p>One way of handling it might be to have whoever does the guidance counselor's college letter (which usually contains an explanation of the school's grading and ranking systems) include an addendum for students in this class setting out the teacher's historical grade distribution for that class and its historical AP results. So, if the teacher really gives 80-90% Cs, at least the admissions officers would be able to see that and judge for themselves. It might take some work to get this to happen (and might be easier in a private school), but it could be worth trying. It doesn't sound like the teacher will be interested in changing his grading practices. And it does sound like this is a good teacher whom the kids appreciate. So the effort should be in the direction of making certain colleges understand what's going on, not of having conflict with the teacher.</p>
<p>My son's APUSH teacher was (and still is) regarded as being the toughest teacher in the school. The kids who take his class just love him. And yes, he averages 4s and 5s on the AP test. But every kid wants a recommendation from him, because he will be honest. He will write about a kid who matured into a great student. He will talk about the kid who struggled to make a C but ended up with that 4 -- and that 4 gives him credit at many colleges. My son just got his rec back --- and it was marvelous. He not only talked about my son's academic record but his involvement in school activities and that even now, as a senior, the two get together and chat politics a couple of times a week. What an impact this man had on my son's life. (I should mention that my youngest, who is only in the seventh grade, also loves to chat history with this man.) Even the regular history kids say he prepared them for college like no other teacher did. Be glad that your D has this teacher. She will work, but the benefits will be seen in courses for many, many years.</p>
<p>Thanks to all of you for your comments thus far. I particularly appreciate the suggestion of having the guidance counselor insert an addendum into the school report. I just want to make sure that if my daughter is not able to attain an "A" or "B", that the AdComs will NOT think she is lazy if she achieves a "4" or "5" on the AP exam in May.
Any other comments would be appreciated from other parents/students about their experiences?</p>
<p>Is there a possibility that this teacher will write one of your daughter's recommendations? This would certainly give the app reader the proper context by which to judge her grade. One of my daughters asked her math teacher of several years write a college rec, though the kid had to fight hard for B-pluses in class and only managed a B in AP Calc (5 on the exam, though). The rec must have been strong, since my d was accepted at her ED school.</p>
<p>Your d's class grade may also rise as she accustoms herself to the demands of the course, as well.</p>
<p>My children's high school sent and still sends its profile out with college apps. (This profile is also available online so everyone has access to it, which is informative.) The profile includes the grade distribution for that year's graduating class in every subject as well as the standardized tests scores (SAT I, SAT II, and AP). This gives each college an overview of how students do overall in each course and makes it clear how cgrading and in-class achievement match up against test scores. </p>
<p>While profiles may be more widely used among independent schools than public schools, I don't think they are unusual, so you might want to find out what kind of information is routinely included with materials sent to colleges before going much further. I realize some teachers do pride themselves on being tough graders, but unless (and even if) there is a rigid and official grade distribution curve, a C is a problem that should be addressed. It is going to look bad, not because a 4 or 5 on the AP will necessarily imply laziness in class but because C is just not a competitive grade on an application to a selective college.</p>
<p>S got a 4 on Apush and 700+ on SATII US history but got a C in the class. In his case it was pure laziness, or rather more like stubborness. He just didn't agree with doing all the busy work the teacher asked them to do so didn't turn in homework. Aced the tests.</p>
<p>frazzled1 #8
Good idea about having the teacher write a rec letter. I know a boy applying to Northwestern RD asking for the teacher's rec that received a "C" in last year's APUSH but garnered a "5" on the AP exam. ...........................................................</p>
<p>mattmom #9
You also point out the difficulty that D faces. It appears that d should work very hard and do what it takes to impress the teacher and try very hard to boost her grade to at least a "B". I'll also take a look at the school's profile that does not include, to my knowledge, details about grade distribution in the courses. That would be helpful, too.</p>
<pre><code> Thanks to all so far! Any other comments would be appreciated!
</code></pre>
<p>D attends competitive private school - and students face the same issues with a few teachers. </p>
<p>I truly have mixed feelings. I don't believe that AP courses need to be easy and I have seen some schools where students breeze by with an A in the class only to find out that they were ill-prepared when they took the AP exam. On the other hand, I think some teachers are egotists when they make the class so difficult that a student can't make an A. IMO a hard working student who knows the material well enough to make a 5 on the AP exam should not make a C in the class - probably would not be making a C in the class at college. To me, a great AP teacher (and we have had them) can teach the material, the student can learn the material and enjoy doing so, and yet the grade does not have to suffer. Multiple quizzes, papers that can be turned in early and then returned with comments prior to grading, extra credit opportunities (hey, if the kid wants to learn more and tweak the grade at same time - more power to him) are all ways that a good AP teacher can teach well and not hurt a GPA. The best AP teacher (lang) my d had stood in front of the parents at open house and commented that she did not believe in arbitrarily damaging a GPA; grading was set so that a student could do well with hard work (the teacher didn't just give an A away). My d made an A in AP Eng Lang and a 5 on the AP exam and worked harder and learned more in the process than she did from similar teachers who gave two quizzes and two tests a quarter and called it a day. </p>
<p>I have no advice to give. I just understand the concern.</p>
<p>I suggest she take the class. I have two sons currently in college and it was their AP History classes that best prepared them for college academics. AP History classes usually demand lots of reading, participation in discussions, essay writing, and research papers----all skills that need to be strong for college success.</p>
<p>BDad118,
The title of your post really resonated with me. D2, who is in her 1st yr of college, had the same issue. The APUSH instructor was not only a tough instructor with high expectations and assigned lots of reading, but she was also D2's junior homeroom advisor!!? D2 had a heavy AP workload in the sciences & math and was not accustomed to getting anything less than B+. It was a very challenging yr where she literally worked her butt off in APUSH for a B. She was pretty disheartened but marched on...with us cheering her on the sidelines...working up to her AP exam. In the end, she received a 5!!!! Even her APUSH teacher/advisor sent her a congratulatory email. In the end, D2 actually did absorb the lessons and learned something. And, at her college, the AP score gave her credit for one class! All's well that ends well. :)</p>
<p>My son butted heads a bit with his AP World teacher. He felt he had a very biased point of view and made up facts to support it. My son would contradict him. He also felt he was a disorganized teacher who got behind with the curriculum leading to a lot of extra review sessions in April. He got a B+ in the course and a 5 on the exam. I wish he were at one of those schools I hear about where kids who get 5s have their grades changed to As! But I don't think the grade was out of line. He'd gotten a B on a major paper which I think was pretty much the grade it deserved.</p>
<p>^^^Ignatius
Maybe not advice, but it is nice to hear others with similar concerns. I am planning to address the issue at the end of the school year with the high school curriculum director.</p>
<p>Thank goodness HS is behind us- not the teachers, but our son the student. AP course grades senior year depended on how the teacher graded, or not, homework- 100% on tests, most quizzes and 0's on homework meant a B in Stats, an A in Calc if homework turned in at some point I believe. Also the sophomore who derided slackers was the senior who got a 5 on the AP Chem exam taken in May followed by a C the next month in the course. He had a good AP USH course soph year, grade matched AP score- teacher told him what he needed to do re the essays (typically tried to cover too much material) but son didn't listen. Definitely get administration to give this teacher a reality check- if the students accomplish the goals of the AP course and get 5's they should get the top grade from the school. The teacher needs to realize his hard grading is not known by any colleges, he is doing his best students a disservice as they are competing with people who get fair grades- within the HS for gpa/class ranks and outside the area as well. Having a disclaimer about the tough grading is like a newspaper publishing a correction- the original is seen and processed before the truth emerges.</p>
<p>Barrister -- until I saw that you're from Ohio, I could have sworn you were posting about the APUSH teacher at my son's school! The APUSH teacher there is known as having the most difficult class in the school -- lots of reading, high expectations, deflated grades, etc. My son got a 5 on the AP exam, a 730 on the SATII, and eeked out a B. He never had to work so hard for a B, and had to pull himself out of a B- hole to get there for his final grade. And you know what? It was totally worth it. In the end it challenged him, gave him confidence that he can meet high expectations and taught him to process and synthesize huge amounts of reading and information. I think it was a very valuable class for him to take (and much more so than a class with an easy A). I would suggest that your daughter not shy away from a class like this. After all, isn't it better that classes PREPARE you for college as opposed to taking classes that can be GPA-boosters?</p>
<p>FWIW, this son got into 8 of the 10 colleges he applied to (including acceptances to Cornell, Hopkins, Wash U, Rice, Vanderbilt) and received merit scholarships to 5 of the 8.</p>
<p>It's probably too late in the year, but is there another APUSH teacher your D could switch to?</p>
<p>My HS had a lot of teachers known for being tough graders but having high AP exam score results. Interestingly enough, though, in the English department, there were two pairs of AP English teachers--two for junior year (one gave some A's but still a very small percentage of the class, and one gave maybe one A a year) and two for senior year (one was reasonably strict with the grades, one gave many A's). IIRC, the matched pairs had very similar AP exam results (ancedotely, I had both of the easier teachers and received 5's on both exams!). In AP World History (sophomore year), though, there was one teacher who was known for having very, very difficult exams (only 1 student in the history of the course had PASSED the first test!) but having students who did very well on the AP exam. He thought his duty was to teach the "smart kids" that yes, they could--and would--fail but counterbalanced his test scores with "weighting" grades (i.e., preparing a course notebook) and reviewed heavily for the final exam. The grade distribution in the class usual ended up being 25% A's, 50% B's, and 25% C's, IIRC. It was a great class, though extremely stressful at the time!</p>