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Obviously not a big deal. I knew what you meant.</p>
<p>I don’t really buy the “animus” argument that the quotas on Jews were intrinsically different than the higher bar imposed on Asian applicants today. There may be ugly comments that get unearthed from that period but in the end it was just about an ethnic group that was higher achieving on average and usurping a favored group at elite schools unless the criteria was changed. That is similar, certainly, to what is happening for Asians. Whether the motive for favoring AA applicants is purer or more altruistic than the motive for favoring wealthy WASP legacies back in the 30s can certainly be discussed but the “favoring” is working the same in that it is disfavoring an academically higher achieving group.</p>
<p>I remember when my son applied to college feeling glad that he was (a) male and (b) white. Better to be male than female in the age of the slacker boy. Better to be white than Asian. This seemed pretty obvious.</p>
<p>Life is rarely absolutely fair. Odd things occur when our society tries to make life absolutely fair. Other, different, and often unexpected injustices emerge.</p>
<p>Finally, I noted several posts on this thread complaining that some campuses are “too white.” I wonder how the response would be on this thread if someone had posted that a campus was “too black” or “too Hispanic” or “too Jewish.”</p>
<p>Even if it’s about devaluing white people, it’s still racial bigotry and I think parents should call their kids on that kind of rhetoric.</p>
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I agree with this. But aren’t you proposing some sort of public policy to force private institutions to comport with your version of what is fair?</p>
<p>Or are you just stating that you think the policy is ill adivsed and you wish the private institutions would reconsider?</p>
<p>I have a question. It seems that, based on a number of these posts, if my son, 1/2 Puerto Rican with darker skin, gets into a highly selective college, he’ll forever be viewed by many/most whites and Asians as having gotten in because he’s PR and not on his stats. Would that be a correct assumption? Can I then further assume there would be silent grumblings and resentments against him? Never mind that his SAT is 2320, he’s been a 2 time physics olympiad semi-finalist, that he’s doing graduate level physics research, that he’s taken 7 college physics courses, 8 college math courses, that his SAT II tests are 800s (with a 730 lit which will be a retake), and that he’s a locally working professional violinist and that he has outstanding LORs. In your minds, he’ll always be the one that took an overachieving Asians spot, is that correct?</p>
<p>Please note for the record: I am a conservative Christian and I am very ambivilent about affirmative action. I don’t like that qualified students aren’t getting into schools because of their race but I also don’t like that people would judge my son on the color of his skin without ever knowing his qualifications.</p>
<p>This is a very complex issue.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo - there’s a thread over on the Parent Cafe called “Brainiest President” that spent a huge amount of time debating whether or not Obama is smart and whether his achievements at Harvard indicated he is smart. I couldn’t help thinking that no one was wondering whether Clinton’s accomplishments at Yale or Oxford meant he was smart. I felt that there was a subtext of questioning whether Obama’s academic pedigree really meant something given his race. That is a very unfortunate consequence of AA, imo.</p>
<p>I don’t know what the answer is. It’s complex and messy. All i can say is I think it’s kind of strange to claim that the bias against Jews at the Ivies is any different than the bias against Asians today. It’s ugly no matter how you slice it. These are kids who are working extremely hard and I think we want to give them all a fair deal. Working out how to do that is difficult and imperfect.</p>
<p>^^^^
@sbjdorlo</p>
<p>To me, this is one of the most unfortunate things about AA. Despite the fact that your son would likely get in to many or most top schools without any consideration of his race, some people will assume he got in only because of that. Look at the President and Sonia Sotomayer. If a school could look into the future and see they were admitting a future president or Supreme Court justice, I guarantee every single one would do so, regardless of that applicant’s SAT scores. </p>
<p>But IMO that is no reason not to make use of the advantage as long as it exists. If you don’t like it you can lobby against it politically. But even if your son chooses not to check that box on his application, unfortunately many people will still assume that he did.</p>
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<p>No, I am not, unless Berkeley is an example of being “overrun by Asians.” And I didn’t say that anyone said it would be a bad thing. In fact, I said “They never say anything past that, but their implication is clear: such a thing will happen, and it will be undesirable.”</p>
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<p>So Asians should only be around 5% of all national colleges? You may tell me that I’m being obtuse, but it’s a fair question. Proportional representation means Asian percentages shouldn’t stray very far from 5%.</p>
<p>I don’t know what a “reasonable level” is. If you associate any number with that phrase, how is it not a quota? But if you admit that Grutter employed a sham argument, I shouldn’t push you on this.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo:
classy people will not make value judgments about your son’s worth, based on ethnicity, national origin, family background, etc. He will be evaluated based on his observable abilities, accomplishments, content of his conversations, etc. One can and will run into shallow or prejudiced people in various environments, such as those adults & adolescents who size people up based on their clothing & accessories (“designer” brand vs. not, etc.). But it has not been my experience that people of quality, including in ‘prestigious’ universities, make automatic judgments about admission qualifications relative to a student’s personal origins, last name, etc. There is at least a critical mass of students at all such campuses who do recognize the level of competition to enter those colleges, feel humble about being fortunate enough to be accepted (given that competition), and do not assume an air of superiority about those who were and were not accepted.</p>
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<p>I agree with sewhappy, though I stress that such misperceptions are wrong. Caltech claims to consider race on their Common Data Set, but their racial breakdown suggests that if they do, they either don’t consider it much or aren’t successful in recruiting "URM"s. As such, I highly doubt that anyone at Caltech would judge your son like that.</p>
<p>"I wonder how the response would be on this thread if someone had posted that a campus was “too black”</p>
<p>For the record, happens all the time in discussing HBCU’s on the African american student forum, and the response is almost always “well, I get it. It’s not for everybody!”.</p>
<p>sbjdorlo, it has never in my life, crossed my mind, to question academic achievment because of race. My experience here on CC has completely blown me away in that regard. I take it too seriously sometimes, but I am not stupid, and I think it’s fair to say CC and elite colleges don’t represent the entire world view. </p>
<p>For context, I am quite obviously black, and a physician.</p>
<p>I just wish we could look at diversity in other dimensions beyond race. Intellectual diversity for one thing. My rising senior kid is about to start her applications. She is a fierce sort of Marxist Libertarian who believes volunteering is immoral. She believes it’s harmful to society to volunteer and work without compensation. She has other contrarian ideas, as well, such as recycling is a bad idea until it is profitable. Anyway, there is such an iron fisted mindset at the elite private schools about volunteering and other matters that it’s hard for a contrarian kid to float an application that truly reflects their perspective. The admissions committees are said to be of one pretty uniform mindset and I think kids are often put into the position of constructing an application that will please these committees but may very well not reflect their ideas.</p>
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<p>If your son had been born Asian, the chances of him making it to Harvard would have been much, much higher. Something like 6 times higher.</p>
<p>^At this point, I always think about the difference between probability, and …something else. And how the numbers shift between conception and the point at which you hit submit on the common app.</p>
<p>^^^ LOL Marxist Libertarian???</p>
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Almost only counts in horseshoes. ;)</p>
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<p>There is such a thing. I had never heard of it either, but I Googled it. I believe that in this day and age, almost no matter what your combination of beliefs, there is probably a label for it.</p>
<p>Thanks for the new term, sewhappy.</p>
<p>The absurdity of AA is illustrated in one very ethnically mixed family, one of whom rose to prominence.</p>
<p>White mother has a child with a black man. The black man leaves shortly after the child’s birth. She has another child with an Asian man. The black child and the Asian child are pretty much raised together in the same conditions and the same socioeconomic status. </p>
<p>The only thing different between the two children is one-half of the genetics. Yet one would get AA and the other would not.</p>
<p>It really makes zero sense.</p>
<p>^ Somehow when I think about that story, AA seems so insignificant.</p>
<p>It points up the absurdity of a one-size fits all AA policy.</p>
<p>I know a woman who had three children by three different men, of different races. One of the children would get AA and the other two would not. Despite having the same living conditions, same social conditions, same income, same schools, and on and on.</p>
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<p>sewhappy, if you were not previously aware of the Harvard Summer Institute on College Admissions, you can judge for yourself whether it’s “said” or just “are.”</p>
<p>[Reading</a> List](<a href=“http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sica/reading.htm]Reading”>http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sica/reading.htm)</p>
<p>Note how The Shape of the River is described:</p>
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<p>Something tells me there isn’t a lot of intellectual diversity with respect to The Shape of the River at this Summer Institute.</p>