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Teaching "writing" without substantive argument usually seems unproductive.
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<p>That's what bothered me about S's Expos class. Not all were like that. But that's what he drew.</p>
<p>It sounds as though my D's Expos experience was one of the more positive ones, so I'll be curious to see how her post-expos writing compares to her placement test writing, if she participates in the assessment. Her course definitely required substantive argument in each of the papers, and she received very favorable feedback on the substantive aspect and much more criticism of her actual writing. The final paper's marks indicated that she had come a long way from the start of the course.</p>
<p>Obviously, one factor that colors how favorably students react to their Expos classes is what sort of writing instruction they received in high school. Although my D has always been told she was a very strong writer, she received next to no feedback in high school. In her AP English Language and Composition class, the only "comments" she received on any papers in the course were either "Good!" or "You Go, Girl!" (I'm not kidding about that.) Coming from that background, most likely any Expos teacher's feedback would have been welcome, although I do think her Expos teacher was good by any measure and not just when held up against her pitiful high school teachers.</p>
<p>What is "good" writing?:)</p>
<p>Sac:</p>
<p>Good question! It must depend on the discipline, surely. I've been told that English majors do not necessarily make good writers of history or political science papers. Some (not all, obviously) fall for analyzing style when they should be analyzing the different arguments. S has a good analytical mind and can write good history papers. He is not so great at discussing works of literature.</p>
<p>Originaloog--if you, or someone like you, needed to turn every reference to the school my kid went to into a derogatory comment, I might get a wee bit defensive, too.</p>
<p>For the record, I think Marite shows remarkable forebearance!</p>
<p>Good writing is something like pornography: I know it when I see it.</p>
<p>My point is that writing belongs in context, and part of that context is the audience. Academic writing is aimed at academics, of course. Many of the habits college students learn in order to be "good" academic writers must be unlearned in order to become good writers in other contexts. Therefore, I would distrust a measurment of whether or not a person wrote "better" going into college or coming out.</p>
<p>(And I agree with Garland. Marite knows a lot about Harvard, and offers it here. That does not mean she's uncritical by any means.)</p>
<p>Another good point, Sac. In some academic settings, saying that a book has a journalistic style is the kiss of death. In commercial publishing, a book that reads like a dissertation won't sell many copies.</p>
<p>I don't know whether my S will get to the dissertation. He doesn't seem to have written anything longer than 5 pages in college so far!</p>
<p>I had a funny realization, though, about how much he learned from writing his college admissions essays. He recently had to write a personal statement for a summer math program, and a math prof gushed about how well written it was. I realized he'd learned how to present himself on paper -- talking about accomplishments and abilities without sounding arrogant, using humor when appropriate, making himself stand out as an individual -- all from that dreadful college application season! Not a bad life skill. He'll write great cover letters.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>What I do find amusing though is your need to defend everything Harvard.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>What I find amusing is some posters' need to attack everything Harvard. Whenever Harvard comes up in any context in any thread on the Parent's board, it's only a matter of time before someone starts bashing.</p>
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I don't think the class my S took had any effect on S's writing. Just a hurdle to be overcome. He would have been better taking an elective.
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<p>I don't think I learned much in expos for two reasons. The first was that I had excellent writing instruction in high school. We wrote weekly papers in English most of the four years I was there. The second is that I am not convinced that all the grad students who taught writing were that good writers themselves. I don't remember my expos teacher well, but he mostly gave me B+s. Every prof. I had after that commented on how well I wrote and gave me As. Except in one course - also with a history grad student TA. The TA put the A papers on reserve at the library and I was appalled at how awful they were. Totally filled with jargon, not particularly well organized and long and meandering. I knew at that point I would never get an A in that course and gave up. In fact I managed to get a B on a paper about Nietzsche and the rise of National Socialism for which I read exactly three pages of Nietzsche. I'm usually on the defending end of Harvard bashing at CC, but this is one place that they were pretty weak, and it would not surprise me at all if they still were. My sil who had not been taught to write in high school really struggled.</p>
<p>My senior thesis by the way which was over 200 pages - had a 100 pages of pictures and diagrams and about 100 pages of 1 to 5 page papers with a little essay a the beginning and end summing it all up.</p>
<p>I think the whole Expos program is going to be under the microscope. High time, too.</p>
<p>The issue of how to improve students' writing in college is a good one, and I'm glad Bok is doing something to highlight it on his way back into retirement. I never got any help. My daughter sure hasn't, except for one TA giving her some articles he thought were well-written that she should imitate. My wife, who is very successful and respected in her field, has never outgrown insecurity about her writing ability, which at best is functional. She did extremely well in college without ever writing something that couldn't be described as pedestrian, something she would be the first to admit.</p>
<p>Chicago has an extremely popular course on academic writing called "The Little Red Schoolhouse," but that's about all I know about it.</p>
<p>I have the impression that once upon a time a Harvard or Yale degree guaranteed a certain level of writing fluency, but that's probably a fantasy.</p>
<p>I don't think there was any "golden age" of writing at Harvard and Yale. If you go back further than ~40 years into history, you reach the era when there were still lots of prep school auto-admits. The undergrads have gotten more academically serious at these schools over time, not less, which I (unscientifically) bet parallels the quality of their writing.</p>