<p>Are Indians considered a minority when it comes to schools and programs for minority groups, etc?</p>
<p>jasminseth, I am guessing you are referring to actual Indians and not native american indians. If so, then Indians in terms of population are a minority, but dont get this confused with URM-or under-represented minorities. In this case, Indians are FAR from URM’s, and therefore for college applications, you wont be considered one. Lol, in fact, I would say in fields of engineering and medicine, Indians are probably like the second MOST represented in terms of proportion to the entire Indian population</p>
<p>More like an over represented minority…</p>
<p>OP,
If you are referring to actual Indians and not native american indians, then by my estimate they are way overrepresented in applicants’ pool for combined bs/md programs.</p>
<p>^^ha, thats what I said…!</p>
<p>Indians are the second most populated race on the planet.</p>
<p>@let that has nothing to do with them being over- or under-represented in college admissions.</p>
<p>OP, Indians are majority in the BS/MD programs (about equal number to caucacians) but in population in the general public they are a minority.</p>
<p>^They are not minority to get any minority privileges, just as many others, like caucasians from Europe or for that matter Asians (as race).</p>
<p>Asian Indians are considered as fourth class citizens in US. First white, then blacks, followed by Hispanics. Indians are in awful shape. It is regretful to see how many mixed whites abuse their privilege to call them Hispanics? It is just unbelievable. They look blonde and they arefrom affluent family and have no language barrier and still want to tap into quota system. I hope someone gets rid of the National Hispanic Scholar program and other quota driven systems. It is just like in India, the backward class, scheduled class quotas getting abused.</p>
<p>Note: This response wil cause stir and commotion, but I am laying out the facts here.</p>
<p>Just because some people choose to abuse the system and some people who are really from underrepresented racial minorities probably have had the economic and educational opportunities that they shouldn’t need affirmative action…doesn’t mean affirmative action is not right. </p>
<p>The truth is Indian-Americans, generally, are probably the most privileged ethnic group in the United States. And the numbers prove it. Average household income is about 90k for US residents born in India and about 70k for Indian-Americans as a whole. For Americans in general, it is 50k. Do you really think an average African-American child from Harlem has the same opportunities as you or I? I don’t. I’m pretty sure there are a ton of kids there who would be way ahead of me if they were given the proper educational and work opportunities. And even in the workplace, research has consistently shown that African-Americans who are equally qualified in terms of education, etc are less likely to be hired than their White counterparts. Heck, even the AMA apologized a couple years ago for racism well into the late 1960s against African-American doctors. And even today, an African-American doctor can have a pretty hard time escaping racism. </p>
<p>(I forget where I read an article, but it was about a very accomplished Harvard med graduate African-American woman doctor…and how she said she could not work without her white doctor’s coat unlike her male white or Asian counterparts because people would think she isn’t a doctor…and think about it, its unfortunate, but its true.)</p>
<p>Furthermore, affirmative action has done wonders through the decades in bringing progress in race relations and helping to slowly close the gap that centuries of blatant racism has created.</p>
<p>Is the system perfect? No. Would economic affirmative action policies be somewhat more fair? Maybe. But its not all about economics. And honestly, people would be like -_____- if you’re discriminating based on my parents working hard and being wealthy.</p>
<p>Also, just as a point of reference. Despite my cc username, I am an Indian-American.</p>
<p>^You said an African American from Harlem. How do you know an African American is from Harlem? They could be very wealthy. Or its just as likely that a white kid could be from harlem and would be denied opportunities while a rich African American kid is handed them on a golden platter.
Using your argument, I could say the same about indian or chinese americans. I’ve seen it before, and I know its there. Does that stop THEM (I would argue that its just as bad or worse for indians and chinese than it is for black people; with blacks its looked down upon while for asians its just another occurrence). </p>
<p>The reason why african americans arent as populant in the medical community isnt because of the color of their skin, but because of a crappy education they might have received. Thats it. </p>
<p>I’m all for getting rid of AA and replacing it with a system more based on income (and YES, we DO NEED a system where opportunity is given to poor kids). Nobody should be given or denied anything based on the color of their skin.</p>
<p>^I’m not sure where I’m supposed to disagree with you.
“Or its just as likely that a white kid could be from harlem and would be denied opportunities while a rich African American kid is handed them on a golden platter.”
I disagree with that simply on the basis of demographics and statistics. </p>
<p>But other than that, “The reason why african americans arent as populant in the medical community isnt because of the color of their skin, but because of a crappy education they might have received.”</p>
<p>Yes, not the only reason, but certainly one of the main reasons. And… affricative action seeks to address this issues yes? But yeah the color of a person’s skin DOES effect a person’s ability to get ahead. As much as we would want to believe we live in a completely post-racist society, you can see why an African-American physician would have to wear his/her doctor coat whereas a white doctor could get away without, in some parts of the country more than others of course. That does make sense yes?</p>
<p>And studies time over time again have shown that a hiring manager at companies without aff action policies are more likely to hire White employees than African-American with the same exact educational qualifications. And the percentage of African-Americans receiving the death penalty for homicides is significantly higher than for White Americans in trials by jury. Believe me, I’m not proud of these things and wish it weren’t so either but facts are facts.</p>
<p>^
Im going to split this up into arguments to make this easier to refute.
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<p>There are approximately 4,800 white kids in poverty while there are about 4,500 black kids in poverty. Yeah, true, there are less blacks in the united states, and the percentages are higher, yada yada, but thats still 4,800 kids who are left with nothing. Still think this is a minority? Do you think 30% is a small enough minority to be ignored?</p>
<p>(source: [National</a> Poverty Center | University of Michigan](<a href=“http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/]National”>http://www.npc.umich.edu/poverty/))</p>
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<p>NO! I know a lot of indian people (doctors in particular) who look very african american, and they made it. Yeah, they’re looked down upon, but giving scholarships based on skin color isnt the way to fix that I personally have pretty dark skin, and when I travel to the midwest I’d probably be perceived as black. Now I dont go around saying I should be given a scholarship because the color of my skin is darker. </p>
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<p>I want to see numbers for this. I did a research report on innocents being tried, and it did in fact show that more African americans were tried when innocent. But the information, upon further inspection, was found to be outdated. </p>
<p>Plus, even assuming this is the case, it doesnt really support AA. This just means we need to break race barriers, not really anything more.</p>
<p>Am I saying there are no White people who are poorer or less advantaged than Black people? No. I think hardly anyone would argue that Barack Obama’s children should be treated as coming from disadvantaged backgrounds for college admissions purposes. But the income disparity between African-Americans and White Americans is pretty ridiculous.
[Distribution</a> of Household Income by Race — Infoplease.com](<a href=“Columbia Encyclopedia | Infoplease”>Distribution of Household Income by Race)</p>
<p>umm. I guess very dark Indian-Americans can be seen as African-American but most people can tell the difference in >90% of cases. </p>
<p>Are you arguing that affirmative action has done nothing to create positive role models in minority communities (and thus motivate other students to excel), advance racial integration, diversity in workplaces/educational environments, and create more equal economic/educational opportunities for the disadvantaged? In that case, I can cite massive amounts of research that can prove you otherwise but I find all of that pretty self evident.</p>
<p>(Seriously, even if I did agree that economic affirmative action was 100% the way to go, how do you propose we do that? Companies that practice affirmative action should ask employees for their parents tax returns? Do you really think discriminating against the rich is going fly at educational institutions? It sounds great — but I have NEVER heard anyone truly articulate a way to use economics as a sound way to replace race as a form of affirmative action)</p>
<p>I can find lots of research to the last point. Here is one: “the odds of receiving a death sentence are nearly four times (3.9) higher if the defendant is black”
[The</a> Death Penalty in Black and White: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Decides | Death Penalty Information Center](<a href=“http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides]The”>http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/death-penalty-black-and-white-who-lives-who-dies-who-decides)</p>
<p>Again, I say the affirmative action system isn’t perfect. And it certainly doesn’t do anything to help me. But its definitely better than no system at all. But yes, I understand political opinions on this widely differ, and while I think on a societal level and individual level it is beneficial to society as a whole and fair to individuals as a whole (though not in every individual case), I can see why some people (including me) find it frustrating and unfair at times.</p>
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<p>There is pretty good evidence that even when you control for socioeconomic status and education, blacks still have poorer outcomes (more likely to be arrested, lower test scores, less likely to be referred for cardiac cath, less likely to be hired, etc.). There are a lot of historical, cultural, and ethnic reasons as to why this is so but we won’t get into that. So, an AA system purely based on economics would be rather short-sighted.</p>
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<p>I think a lot of anti-AA people end up making the “All my poor Asian friends were still successful, why can’t black people be?” argument. We all know a lot of Asians who were dirt poor and still “made it.” My family’s income was only $8000 when we first immigrated here (I’m a first-gen immigrant) and we lived off that for 6 years. I myself attended schools that were 90% African American (and I was probably the poorest student in the school). But, you ignore a huge difference b/w poor Asian immigrants and poor African Americans: poor Asian immigrants are likely to still be educated. My parents at least finished college in Asia, which is more than what I can say for many African American parents. You can’t under estimate what having a legacy of education can do for you, even if you’re poor. Many African American families don’t have this legacy, again for many historical and cultural reasons. In many African American communities, there are literally no one who has EVER gone to college. So, it’s not exactly comparing apples to apples when you compare a poor Asian to a poor African American. The Asians who immigrate here are still a self-selected group.</p>
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<p>You don’t give Midwesterners much credit, do you? As someone who grew up in the Midwest I should take offense to that lol If there’s one thing we are good at (unfortunately), it’s that we are very good at singling out African Americans. No one thinks someone named Ravi Patel is black. </p>
<p>So, is AA perfect? Hell no. It’s a band-aid measure that’s slow to work. But, can it work? Sure. We have to look no further than medical school. It was only recently that we practiced aggressive AA for female applicants to med school. In just the last few years, for the first time in history, the number of female medical students have exceeded the number of male medical students. There’s good data that if you back up affirmative action admits with good support, they can be successful (for example, the graduation rates of blacks at top LAC’s are much better than at Cornell or UC Berkeley). Medical school is pretty hard to fail. So, blacks are still graduating medical school at roughly a 95% clip (compared to 98-99% for Asians/Whites), which is acceptable to most med schools.</p>
<p>I think some historical context is also relevant here. The reason that African-American and Hispanic students are eligible, not white kids, is largely based on their historical exclusion from the American middle class. The great American middle-class was created through FDR’s government programs back in the Great Depression. However, African-Americans were virtually excluded from these programs, making the middle-class predominantly white. The result? Well, it just severely exacerbated an already existing economic gap. It is this gap that educational institutions are now trying to fix.</p>
<p>There are many poor asians in this country, but they were not excluded access into the middle class by the American government itself. And what norcalguy says is true–A background of education in the family goes such a long way, no matter how little money you have.</p>
<p>And yes, wealthy African-Amerian and Hispanic students do seem to get a major boost in the system, but their boost is still working towards what AA is trying to solve. Many of these wealthy URMs are going on to med school, law school, grad school, and bridging that professional gap, and allowing the public to get used to these different faces in high-power jobs. This is only my interpretation, of course, but I think getting these young professionals out there will open more doors for the next generation.</p>
<p>Folks,</p>
<p>Let us pause for a second here. I keep hearing over and over again from my grandparents and aunts from India that students from the poorest background and uneducated background turns out to be superstars. They score the highest in the state board exams. Do you know why? The vigor inside the kid is the sole reason. She/he has the passion to succeed. I do not see this in the country. Do you know why? Too many people believe high school and college education is not necessary for success. It is just the opposite in India. If you ask any Indian school kid, what are their aspirations? They will choose between doctors or engineers. They are programmed that way. Is it a bad thing? May be. Are they successful? Oh yea. The bottom line is, when Indians are pushed hard regardless whether they are poor/rich, educated/uneducated the parents are, and they will shine. The same thing does not hold true in USA. They keep making excuses after excuses.<br>
How many Indians are working so hard in this country? How many taxi drivers? Gas station owners? Hotel owners/workers? This country is called ‘Land of opportunity’. It seems like only Asians understand the true meaning of it. The others do not fathom it at all. They want everything for free or serve them in the gold plate. The AA policy has made people lazy. The Hispanic population is abusing the crap out of it. It is a real shame.</p>
<p>Why would a Black or Hispanic family making over 80K per year with educated parents be claiming the AA status? Can anyone help me answer this? I like the idea of looking into family income as one of the key criterion for the AA status. Just an inception idea to make the system better.</p>
<p>Everyone need to accept the meaning of ‘niche’. Have you seen an Asian Indian excel in NBA or NFL? It is dominated by Blacks. Do Indians complain? Why in the world people get so mad if Asian Indians pursue medicine? It is all stereotyped and what is wrong with it?</p>