<p>I was wondering how hard Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Stanford really are compared to other colleges (such as Rice). I've heard that they're super selective. But, especially with Stanford, they're not too bad once you're in.</p>
<p>it all depends</p>
<p>If you're qualified to get in, odds are you can do the work. That said, there will always be kids who fall apart freshman year.</p>
<p>Top 10 schools that are not incredibly tough:
1. Harvard, Stanford, Brown
2. Columbia, Dartmouth, Penn, Yale, Princeton, Amherst, Williams, others</p>
<p>Deflatory Schools
Swartmore, Chicago, JHU, Cornell, MIT, CalTech</p>
<p>when i applied to harvard, my guidance counselor told me that the hardest part was getting in. and that was such a lie. despite what people may think, harvard is a pretty tough school with its fair share of competition. it may not be as hard as MIT or Caltech, but it still isn't easy...</p>
<p>Sometimes I wonder how people make the judgment that Harvard is easy. It is often based on the anecdotes about grade inflation at Harvard, with a high percentage graduating with honors. </p>
<p>While Harvard may or may not be easy (I have no way if knowing or comparing), that explanation doesn't mean anything since it doesn't take into account the (alleged) caliber of Harvard students. If all of them are extremely bright, and all of them learn the material very well, why should Harvard give the extremely good student, who is average in comparison to her immediate peer group, a C? In short, a high average GPA at Harvard does not necessarily imply that an average Cornell student will attain an average GPA at Harvard (if we are assuming that an average Harvard student is indeed brighter than an average Cornell student). </p>
<p>But this is all just conjecture. While I personally doubt that Stanford and Harvard are actually easy, I've heard from a Stanford student that the school does a really good job taking care of you if you're poised to fall through the cracks. So maybe they're forgiving at the margins...</p>
<p>the thing about chicago/cornell being harder than any other top schools is a myth. the average GPAs at these schools are as high as any other elite school (around 3.3)</p>
<p>most top schools are very difficult to fail out of, or even get Cs, but also very difficult to receive As.</p>
<p>
[quote]
So maybe they're forgiving at the margins...
[/quote]
exactly</p>
<p>Harvard is 'easier' because the school usually has a strong desire to keep its students, stronger than other schools with a stronger educational curriculum like MIT and technical schools, since a lot of the harvard students are from rich and powerful families (Acceptance rate for relatives of alumini is 50%...enormously large) so they dont want to loose those connections.</p>
<p>Isn't the saying...Cornell is the easiest to get in but the hardest to get out?</p>
<p>Uh... ivies are generally hard to get into, and not so easy to come out of.</p>
<p>You have to realize the fact that once you're in, you're up against people who have excelled their whole lives up to that point. Sure, the median grade at some random ivy in a random grade inflated class might be a B+ or so, but the fact is, that's median for the nation's brightest students! I wouldn't be too surprised if a random student in the second 25% of their class at Harvard or Columbia or Dartmouth or whatever could go and graduate magna cum laude at some no name school..</p>
<p>As for Cornell being easiest to get in but hardest to get out... that actually depends on your major and somewhat in which school you apply for. I mean, someone who applies AEM is gonna have a helluva time trying to get in and not a very helluva time getting out while an Applied Engineering Physics major is gonna have a helluva time getting in and out.</p>
<p>Or... (sorry to rag on fellow Cornellians) you could apply Human Ecology which is generally less selective and you wouldn't have too much of a hard time getting out.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I've heard that they're super selective. But, especially with Stanford, they're not too bad once you're in.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>I'm not sure how you define "not too bad," but my observation of Harvard is that the students there work very hard. That doesn't mean that the material is neccessarily impossible to understand, but you will spend a lot of time doing the tons of reading, writing the papers, and working the problem sets. It's not a school for slackers.</p>
<p>Let's just put it this way: that thing you always thought you were really good at in high school... yeah, you aren't too good at it once you are in a class full of incredible savants (unless you are one of them of course). However, if you are good enough to be accepted, you can find a subject which you can excel at.</p>
<p>I'm kind of surprised by some of the comments as I have a more emphatic view that the Ivies are comparatively much easier to get out of and this shows up in their graduation rates. </p>
<p>Consider the eight Ivies (all ranked by USNWR in the top 15) and the first 8 non-Ivy colleges (all ranked in the top 16). </p>
<p>Here is how their graduation rates compare for 6-year measurement periods:</p>
<p>97% Princeton
98% Harvard
96% Yale
94% U Penn
93% Dartmouth
94% Columbia
92% Cornell
95% Brown
95% AVERAGE</p>
<p>90% Cal Tech
94% Stanford
94% MIT
93% Duke
91% U Chicago
91% Wash U StL
93% Northwestern
90% J Hopkins
92% AVERAGE</p>
<p>Similar results occur if you use 4-year graduation rates:</p>
<p>90% Princeton
87% Harvard
90% Yale
87% U Penn
84% Dartmouth
92% Columbia
84% Cornell
83% Brown
87% AVERAGE</p>
<p>83% Cal Tech
76% Stanford
82% MIT
87% Duke
85% U Chicago
82% Wash U StL
85% Northwestern
81% J Hopkins
83% AVERAGE</p>
<p>For student bodies that are very equal qualitatively, the Ivies appear to have stronger graduation records. One could attribute this to a number of factors, including:
1. Higher average family income at Ivies. Not sure if this is true, but if so, this makes sense. I believe that there have been studies done that show a high correlation between higher family incomes and higher graduation rates.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Easier grading policies. This is an explanation that you often hear for several of the Ivies. The institutional bias is to accept the students as highly qualified and create grading patterns that reflect this student excellence. These higher grades potentially smooth the path to higher graduation rates. </p></li>
<li><p>Prestige factors. This is more of a factor for freshman retention, but there is a longer-term effect/benefit to the Ivies due to their higher freshman retention. My expectation would be that if students are more likely to stay at a school following their first year, then they are more likely to graduate on time. As Ivy students tend to value highly the prestige of their college affiliation, their inclination to transfer is comparatively lower than students at a college with lower historical prestige. (Please note that I am not saying that Ivy students are prisoners of their college and that they are unhappy and trapped there, but I do think that the college's prestige does limit transfers out.)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Ivy colleges benefit greatly in the USNWR rankings from their high freshman and 6-year graduation rates which combine for 20% of the ranking. Barring a change in methodology by USNWR, this graduation advantage will make it very hard for any of the Ivies to drop significantly or for other schools to displace them from the top 15.</p>
<p>The "hardest thing is to get in" line about Harvard is pure urban legend, according to my D, a rising sophomore. Count on reading > 1000 pages a week, writing your tail off, and keeping pace with a student culture that views you as a loser if you're not willing to pay the price.</p>
<p>Hawkette...Relevant to this analysis, an interesting fact for students thinking of Hopkins...Most schools require that students take an average of 4 courses each semester. However, at Hopkins, this requirement averages out to 5 courses each semester. So while most students at elite schools graduate with 32 credits, Hopkins students must have the equivalent of 40 credits, which works out to 8 additional courses. (At Hopkins, this would work out to being 120 credits, since each course given the weight of 1 credit at most other schools, is given the weight of 3 credits so to figure out the equivalent number of courses, simply divide by 3). Of course there are 4 credit classes such as courses with labs, or those with additional writing/research components. Hopkins students must have 12 credits of writing credits, which may be accomplished though taking various types of courses with additional writing components.
These additional eight or so courses can make it more difficult for students to graduate in 4 years, especially those who have lots of other commitments, or want to do unpaying internships during the school year.
There are mitigating factors, however. The first semester's courses are given covered grades, so essentially, all Hopkins students graduate with a 7 semester gpa. Students may also elect to take 1 course per semester, pass/fail, although some advisors say not to do this every semester. And some students do internships for credit during the summer. Also, there is a very interesting 3 week intercession, during which time students may return to campus and take some fascinating courses for a total of 1-2 credits on a p/f basis. Nevertheless, the additional approximately 8 course differential between Hopkins and most (all?) other top schools certainly is an explanation for the disparity in graduation rates.</p>
<p>Hawkette,</p>
<p>Harvard's high graduation rate is because it is nearly impossible to FAIL out of Harvard or get kicked out. I know a few students who were failing (D or worse) first semester freshman year (some partied too much-strange, i know-while others just had a hard time handling the workload). Harvard's solution was that they take a semester off and come back when more mature or better equipped to handle the coursework.</p>
<p>And, as soon as one begins to fail at Harvard, you are sent warnings from you dean. My roommate bombed a midterm and therefore had a "D" in our economics class for the first half of the semester. She got letters reminding her of the resources available (tutoring, etc) until she brought her grade back up to passing (a C-, i think).</p>
<p>Harvard is even forgiving when it comes to non-academic problems as well. A girl in my year was strung out on cocaine and Harvard told her to take some time off, go to rehab, get any other necessary help, and then she could come back to school.</p>
<p>So, you see, NOT graduating from Harvard is very hard to do. But that doesn't mean graduating is easy. There is so much competition, the classes are hard, and the work is neverending. So while everyone may graduate, that doesn't mean they all had good GPAs or that they didn't struggle for it.</p>
<p>I'd guess Columbia's impressive four year graduation rate has as much to do with housing as anything else. The university guarantees four years of housing. Until recently, when the university bought and rennovated more buildings, you lost that guarantee even if you took a semester abroad. Housing in Manhattan is a major incentive to graduate in four years. So, I don't think it's a measure of difficulty.</p>
<p>My general impression is that Ivies hate to flunk people out. They have an investment in a student, including the fact that they chose to give the student a spot. I also think they are sensitive to students' expectations these days that, if they do their best on all the work, they will get at least a B. That doesn't mean some profs don't give out Cs and worse. And it says nothing about the workload. At Columbia, anyway, students seem to take on ambitious courseloads.</p>
<p>As I have posted on another thread, Harvard is hard to flunk out of and hard to earn an A</p>
<p>I have no idea who said Princeton is easy, because everything I've heard is contrary to that, they've also just implemented a deflationary grading policy.</p>
<p>You also have to graduate in 8 full-time semesters from Columbia. You can't take a ninth semester to round out your credits.</p>