Are Ivy's Even Important?

College Search & Selection
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<p>I just finished visits to Harvard, MIT, and Princeton.</p>

<p>If you dont care about my visits scroll down...</p>

<p>I got an overall impression that Harvard was a song and dance school. Here im thinking its the premier everything, and the tour guides talked for an hour about their major in art history. Dont get me wrong - if your in to art history awesome, but 3/4 tour guides majoring in it seems odd. Maybe i had a bad tour...what are you going to do</p>

<p>I liked MIT. Not much to the eye but the people seemed more devoted and serious, yet they still obviously liked their fun (I'm thinking the couch they drive around Boston etc.). The campus as i said was'nt to beautiful but i really liked the atmosphere.</p>

<p>Princeton was breathtaking. Absolutely the most beautiful city and campus i have ever seen. Its only a few trees short of national forest. The people seemed a little more snobby than in Boston however. It wasn't to bad, and I'll be the first to say i can be a little cocky and conceited myself yet it was still very noticeable. Oh yeah...The Bill Frist (R) "senate majority leader" campus center scares me and offered a little more insight into the political stereotype attached to the ivy's.</p>

<p>SO.....sorry had to get that off my chest.... :)</p>

<p>Anyways: </p>

<p>The thought crossed my mind whats the point? These places dont seem that much different from a state school especially in Michigan or California. The people were more motivated but as far as the campus itself and the majors availible i saw little difference. AND THEN I thought, well theres a reason that people who go to MIT and ivy's do so well. Or are they just more motivated and intelligent than most people?</p>

<p>Is there a point in getting an undergrad degree especially in the sciences from a place like this if i plan on grad school anyways?</p>

<p>I didn't mean to offend anyone in the tour summaries and if i did i apologize.
THNX - Sock</p>

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<p>Your undergrad degree should be from an institution where you are happy and at home.</p>

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<p>I think you're definitely right when you say that people who attend elite schools are motivated and intelligent; I'm sure that's an extremely important factor in their success. </p>

<p>Still, I think having an elite undergraduate degree can be advantageous in and of itself; I got my first lab job at the NIH because I go to MIT, not because of how motivated or intelligent I was -- if I had gone to Ohio State, I wouldn't have gotten the offer, even being the same person. That first lab job helped me get a very good research position back at MIT; the work I am doing in that lab is going to be published soon in one of the best journals in biology. But I probably wouldn't have gotten that lab job when I did if I hadn't worked at the NIH, and I wouldn't have worked at the NIH if I didn't go to MIT.</p>

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<p>unusual sock: </p>

<p>hahha, I liked your little anecdote about the Bill Frist Campus Center..I have a similar one. I was visiting Princeton with my Dad, and the tour of course started at the Frist Campus Center. Well, my Dad works for a union, and used to specifically represent health care workers. Well Frist's fortune and family is in the healthcare bussiness, and ran one of the most anti-union outfits out there. So we get to the center and my dad is like omg, this is the BILL FRIST campus center?! Bill Frist money!?! And I'm like, WOAH. I can't go here...</p>

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<p>Two weeks ago, I would have expounded on the benefits of a high-quality education. But I've had time to think on it, research, and kill all my parents' hopes and dreams. I'm not much into the big ones either, anymore. The name draws people, but the people expect everything to be perfect, and they end up miserable because it's not.</p>

<p>I'm applying to Dartmouth, Cornell, and Yale, but whenever I imagine myself at college I see Indiana University at Bloomington. Everybody gets into IUB, all you need is a pulse and a birth certificate, but I love the campus and the professors and the research facilities. They have the most wonderful recital halls, not like the stuffy ones in NE (no offense). And I kind of like knowing I won't be surrounded by go-getters.</p>

<p>My Dad was crushed when I told him Duke, Stanford and Harvard were out. Dartmouth and Cornell are smaller, so I think I'd be happy. Yale's a stretch, but I could work with it. I've come to be quite anti-Ivy, actually. I'm not rich, I don't have a legacy, and though a name college will get you up in the professional world, I'd much rather be happy and mentally healthy.</p>

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<p>I agree with Kirmum. People get very caught up in prestige when choosing a college, and that's definately the wrong thing to choose a school based, especially an undergraduate one. The truth is that there really ISN'T much difference between an Ivy and a state school. Some people would say a motivated peer group, but you can find groups of motivated people just about anywhere. Besides, I might even argue that being in a group of people who are ALL such overachievers could actually make you take a turn for the worst academically...I know this happened to me a bit in HS. :) </p>

<p>Nearly everything you find at Harvard, you can find as UMass Amherst. What you find at Stanford can also be found at UCSC. A good education can be found anywhere if you are willing to look for it. In fact, undergraduate schools at the Ivies are often less stellar than applicants seem to believe, taught mostly by TAs, with large classes and little personal attention--hmm, remind you of anything? State schools maybe?</p>

<p>The most important factor is finding a place where you feel at home. When you're happy, that's when you'll really excel. And when you excel, that's when grad schools and recruiters for jobs will notice you.</p>

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<p>dude cornell is bigger than harvard, duke, or stanford. research my friend!</p>

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<p>Yes. That's why I just changed my mind to Vassar.</p>

<p>Unless that's humongous too and I just haven't seen the stats.</p>

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<p>More than anything, my visit told me that the people and the places aren't perfect.</p>

<p>Howerver, this is in no way enough to keep me from applying and strongly considering them.</p>

<p>I am in no way anti-ivy and as i said there must be a reason these groups of people are so much more succesful than most.</p>

<p>Like the MIT grad said...Even though they may have been the same in both intelligence and motivation coming from Ohio State the name that MIT has built itself gave them access to a research field otherwise unavailible, regardless of abilities.</p>

<p>I hate to say it, but the same false sense of prestige i had before visiting and many will always have, is carried by employers, companies, and the other powers that be.</p>

<p>Or am i wrong?</p>

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<p>No Vassar's pretty diverse. I would look into Brown also.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I hate to say it, but the same false sense of prestige i had before visiting and many will always have, is carried by employers, companies, and the other powers that be.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True. That's how branding works. It's a form of marketing, and marketing is a multi-billion dollar industry. Companies pay huge sums of money in order to build a preserve a strong brand name. Why? Because they know that a good brand name boosts sales. Similarly, as molliebatmit has indicated, the brand-name of a school boosts the value of the degree from that school. Like it or not, that's how it works. Like it or not, prestige matters. It matters because it helps you get a job.</p>

<p>The fact is, brand-names have economic value, because they serve as a substitute for information. When you lack information about what you should buy, you will tend to go for the brand-name. For example, let's say you want to take some really good photographs, and you need those photos to look really good, but you know nothing about cameras. Are you going to buy a camera from a manufacturer that you've never heard of? Probably not - you are probably going to choose something from a vendor that you know, like Kodak or Sony. That's because you don't have the information to tell you what camera is good and what is not, so to be on the safe side, you go with the brand name. Now, if you were a professional photographer, then you would know what's good and what isn't and you don't need to rely on a manuafacturer's brand-name. Heck, you can probably custom-fit a camera yourself with your own lenses and actuators and flashbulbs and all that. That's because you know exactly what you're doing. You have the information, so you don't need to rely on the brand-name as a substitute for information. </p>

<p>The fact is, information is costly. It takes time to learn enough about photography such that you know what cameras are good and what aren't. If you don't want to spend that time, then you will not have the information, which means that you will need to rely on brand names, for risk of getting a shoddy pictures. The brand-name therefore serves as a way to reduce risk and conserve on information. </p>

<p>Now, don't get me wrong. I am not in any way, shape, or form, suggesting that prestige should be the only criterion that you use to determine what school you should go to. No. Obviously it isimportant things to consider whether the school will fit you. But on the other hand, it would be foolish to simply discount prestige completely. Prestige has value. We can argue about how much value, but it does have value. Even if you personally don't care at all about prestige, the fact is, other people in this world do care, and they may be the ones deciding whether to give you something you want, like a job, or grad-school admission, or whatever. </p>

<p>I would also ask whether it's really that terrible to go to a school that you don't like that much? Obviously if you absolutely loathe the place, then don't go. But if it's tolerable, well, maybe that you can get through it. I would compare the situation to the training that elite military forces undergo. Take the Navy Seals. To become a Navy Seal, you have to undergo an 18 month training process before you can become a fully-fledged Navy Seal. And let me tell you, Navy Seal training is no joke. It is a brutal and grueling time of your life. I'm fairly certain that no Seal except the most sick masochist actually "enjoyed" the training process. Pretty much everybody dislikes it. But they grit their teeth and put up with it. Why? Because they want to enjoy the fruits of the process, which is to be Navy Seals. </p>

<p>Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that people who go to elite schools are comparable to Navy Seals. My point is, sometimes you gotta do things you don't really like to do in order to get to do the things you do like to do. That's life. Hence, sometimes it may be worth it to go to a school that you don't really like (but you don't absolutely hate) in order to get prestige. It might be worth it. Not guaranteed, of course, but it might be worth it.</p>

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<p>LOL</p>

<p>We got some marketing, philosophy, and military training all rolled up into one.</p>

<p>But seriously thanks for your advice, those same thoughts were mulling around in my head, all be it in far fewer words.(Thats why im a science guy :))</p>

<p>THNX again
-Sock</p>

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<p>From SemiSerious:</p>

<p><< there really ISN'T much difference between an Ivy and a state school...>></p>

<p><< you can find groups of motivated people just about anywhere...you can find groups of motivated people just about anywhere...>></p>

<p><< being in a group of people who are ALL such overachievers could actually make you take a turn for the worst academically...>></p>

<p><< Nearly everything you find at Harvard, you can find as UMass Amherst...>></p>

<p><< undergraduate schools at the Ivies are often less stellar...>></p>

<p>While I agree about being too caught up with prestige, I find what you said astounding and there are so much evidence to the contrary.</p>

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<p>The difference in the education you receive from the "best" school in the country and the 200th best is minimal. </p>

<p>However, as many have pointed out, employers value prestige. If your applying for a job and there are 20 equally qualified applicants, and, say, 19 of them went to a public school and the other went to MIT, odds are the MIT guy is going to get hired.</p>

<p>Also, school prestige helps one get into a good grad school. If your an admissions officer at a top law school, who are you more likely to take, a student with a 3.8 GPA at Princeton, or a student with a 3.8 GPA at UCLA?</p>

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<p>It depends a lot on what you're going for. Majoring in English at MIT won't get you farther than someone who did well at a state school, period.</p>

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<p>Sakky's remarks about "branding" were interesting and insightful. Colleges are very conscious of their image. Some second and third tier colleges openly talk about branding as a way to improve their niche in the higher ed marketplace. </p>

<p>Yes, a "brand name" is a substitute for information. Branding is unethical when it implies false information, when it suggests something is better than it really is.</p>

<p>The benefits of an Ivy League education are real. Many of the benefits are not exclusive to Ivy League colleges and can be found at other selective colleges but only "Ivy League" conveys such a positive image.</p>

<p>Some of the benefits:
surrounded by talented students and faculty
pervasive academic climate/atmosphere
quality and level of instruction
the quality and creativity of the ideas to which you are exposed
physical resources
professional activity, "maturity", and accomplishments of faculty
a culture of excellence
"maturity" in social experiences/desireable role models
effective mentoring
nice campus and environment
sense of tradition and history
sense of pride and achievement
alumni network
effective job and grad school placement
professional connections of faculty
opportunities and support for developing talents and interests
uniformly excellent students and faculty
work ethic</p>

<p>Most of these things are not exclusive to Ivy League but Ivy has them in greater measure. There is a clear difference between the Ivy experience and second tier schools. "Public Ivies" are wonderful but internally less consistent in quality. The "Little Ivies" are similar to the Ivy League.</p>

<p>That said, Ivies are not the best choice for everyone. It boils down to finding the best fit. What are you looking for in a college? Even the best professors don't draw 30,000 screaming fans.</p>