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<p>I beg to differ. Recommending ZB’s book is akin to suggesting Amy Chua’s for parenting or Andrew Ferguson’s “crazy” book as a valid admission guide. </p>
<p>Those books are nothing else that useless anecdotes --ranging from sad to comical-- that should not be emulated by anyone with more than an ounce of common sense.</p>
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<p>Interesting. How much more should someone from a state similar to Oregon pay to attend Pomona over one of the HYP?</p>
<p>PS That is not a typo. The question is really about paying more for a Pomona education than a HYP one.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl:
MDdad2012:
MDdad, we’ve been in your very same position for a decade, and I’m still in agreement with Pizzagirl. Look at the excellent options you’ve outlined for your daughter. What’s “torturous” about that choice? She has three categories of schools from which to choose that are affordable for you and will provide her with a great education. Is that not a win/win?</p>
<p>Students who are admitted at Ivies will be strong contenders for merit aid from Emory, Vanderbilt, WUSTL; kids with multiple Ivy acceptances will have solid chances at merit scholarships at Duke and UChicago (rare, but kids with multiple Ivy acceptances will be in consideration). So that’s another category of schools that need not be taken off the list because of the high cost of attendance, if the student is that outstanding (and understands where the parental limits are).</p>
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<p>There are limitations, though. Many LACs do not have the E in STEM (though some do). And many LACs are undergraduate-only, which can be a problem for a math major who enters the college already advanced a year or two in math, since such students commonly take graduate level courses as undergraduates.</p>
<p>This does not mean that most intended STEM majors should reject LACs without a closer look, although if situations like the above (majoring in engineering, or majoring in math starting advanced) apply, those may eliminate many LACs. Such situations can, of course, eliminate many schools not normally thought of as LACs.</p>
<p>The perception that LACs are generally weak in STEM fields may be due to the perception that “liberal arts” means only humanities and social studies, even though it properly includes math and science.</p>
<p>(But should a specialty school like Harvey Mudd College or Sarah Lawrence College really be considered a LAC in the way that the term is normally used? While they may be strong in certain groups of liberal arts, they may not even offer much more than typical breadth courses in others.)</p>
<p>Go to the school you can afford, a very simple concept…But go to the best school you can afford…</p>
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<p>Sometimes I wish new CC members would have to pass a test prior to joining to make sure there are just certain things they know prior to participating in any thread… and this would be the first question on the test, if I ruled the world!</p>
<p>But I’ll agree with you whole-heartedly on your first paragraph. Several weeks ago I started a thread looking for some schools that met certain criteria for a son of a good friend. While the members here did a great job of offering suggestions, one of his criteria was a smallish school, which includes mostly LACs. It was difficult to find a school that size with mechanical engineering. However, we did identify some and I think he has some good options. One school that was mentioned (although it is hardly considered a LAC now) is Bradley University and my friend initially turned it down because of its distance from home. But I think it’s back on the list. I have to go down to Peoria in a couple of weeks for the day, and am going to make an offer to take them down with me and let them explore the campus while I’m off doing my own thing. I think he’d really like it once he saw it.</p>
<p>My answer is hell NO!</p>
<p>My answer was also hell NO. Not unless you’re at a higher income level than we are. And we are very fortunate. But as a small biz owner, I found the top-tier LACs that my daughter was thrilled to get accepted to offered zero aid, even though cost of attendance was WAY higher than our EFC. Mainly because I own a (very small) business. Which fluctuates wildly in profitability. We were considered full-page by tippy top LACs, while the state flagship, OOS flagships and smaller privates all offered great merit and great options.</p>
<p>My D is super happy and getting a wonderful education; we can sleep at night instead of wondering how we’ll scrape another $55k together for sophomore year.</p>
<p>Not sure what she would’ve picked, had money been NO object. But I cannot imagine her happier than she is now, so the choice she made was a good one all around.</p>
<p>THe notion that you have to go to some sort of elite school to get a job comports with neither my recent anecdotal experience nor my common sense.</p>
<p>Does it help to attend Harvard or Williams when looking for work? I’m certain it probably does. Is it worth the extra money? I don’t know maybe. Will you have a better chance on Wall Street or at Google if you work for one of these places? Yes, I hear that’s true.</p>
<p>But the notion that that the only graduates getting jobs this year are the 1500 or so Harvard grads makes no sense. Sure it’s tough. From what I’ve read, the unemployment rate for 20-24 yearold college grads is somewhere from 8 to 12%. Yes, that’s worse than the probably < 5%% a few years ago. But that still means many kids are getting jobs, and I know for a fact they aren’t all at McDonald’s.</p>
<p>As I’ve written elsewhere, we recently hired several UC grads, and we’re interviewing for a few more positions shortly. These aren’t jobs at Goldman, but within a few years they’ll be making 100K, and if they go elsewhere probably more. Because the reason we are constantly hiring, even now, is that these undesirable state college kids keep getting hired away by utilities, independent power producers, power traders, system operators, oil and gas companies, etc. I also know we are not the only people in my industry hiring. And we aren’t all hiring Ivy and elite school grads, because there just aren’t that many of them even if we wanted to.</p>
<p>Geez, I think I read somewhere else on this website that all those Ivy schools are easy to get into, and you need to be from India to get a job these days (That’s an exaggeration for effect just in case I need to explain it) Some of the stuff I read on here is simply incredible.</p>
<p>bovertine,
No one on this thread said you need to go to an Ivy to get a job. The thread is about whether it is worth it to spend $55K for Amherst, Williams and Middlebury, and whether there is a name-recognition issue with those schools, as compared to other schools at the same price.</p>
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<p>I agree. Only option D, paying 220K is torturous for me. The other options are not.</p>
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<p>From your comment it seems you haven’t read Zac’s book. To lump his book with Amy Chua’s is disingenuous. His main point is that students and parents should not take massive loans to pay for college. It’s not a good idea to raid 401K accounts or home equity to pay for college. He reiterated these points on CBS This Morning on Friday morning. He also recommends some solid choices, from starting out in community college and transferring to a 4 year, to seeking out an honors program in an in-state university. I am not sure I agree with his point about working many hours during the school year to pay for it.</p>
<p>Sure, but that advice would be the same whether it’s Harvard or Williams. The thread isn’t about whether ANY college is worth $200k. It’s about LACs specifically not being worth $200k compared to unis.</p>
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<p>Do you hire a lot of state school grads over Ivy grads for those $100K positions, or do they have an equal chance at the job?</p>
<p>"This seems to be a private school phenomenon.</p>
<p>I don’t think that most public school guidance counselors are as familiar with LACs as their counterparts at private schools. "</p>
<p>Fully agreed. But I don’t think most public school GCs – at least if I project off the ones I’ve experienced – have a clue about places outside their own backyard / region.</p>
<p>“Do you hire a lot of state school grads over Ivy grads for those $100K positions, or do they have an equal chance at the job?”</p>
<p>Yes. (But BYU will get them a greater advantage because of networking.)</p>
<p>"I don’t think that most public school guidance counselors are as familiar with LACs as their counterparts at private schools. "</p>
<p>Many private school guidance counselors are aware of their kids’ odds at Ivies, and don’t get any points from parents when they are disappointed.</p>
<p>This topic is recycled frequently. Bottom line, IMO, if a person can afford it and it is something they want, then it’s worth it. If not, it’s a non-issue. If you can’t afford a Porsche, don’t buy one. There are plenty of othe perfectly nice, comfortable, reliable cars. The Porsche is a luxury. If you want a large house with lots of amenities, there are many to be had, in different locations, but you may not be able to afford the one in the locatoin you want. These may not be ideal analogies, but the bottom line is, if the price is not an object, then its “worth it” if the student really loves the school and it a great “fit”. Who are we to tell others how to spend their money?</p>
<p>[America’s</a> colleges are subverting the liberal arts - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/17/opinion/la-oe-hacker-college-courses-20110817]America’s”>Take back the liberal arts)</p>
<p>Discusses changes in teaching seen in LA schools today.</p>
<p>^^^^</p>
<p>Actually, that article is about what is being taught in liberal arts <em>courses</em> at colleges and universities, not just about teaching at liberal arts colleges themselves. One of the schools the authors pick on is Yale.</p>
<p>And the authors do praise more ‘modest’ institutions such as Hendrix and Occidental, schools that are less well-known than Williams and Amherst. Since the OP is concerned about the name recognition of places like Williams and Amherst, then Hendrix or Occidental (Occidental now costs a whopping 58K a year) is unlikely to appear on the top of the list, even with praise from a major Left Coast editorial.</p>
<p>Well, this thread has been helpful. As with everything complex, the right road is probably the middle road.</p>
<p>DD’s list will include some LACs that have good reputations and which she will not have visited. We’ve talked it over with her and concluded that if her high reach SCEA doesn’t materialize but one of these very selective LACs does, then it will be worthwhile to visit it in the spring before simply settling on one of her academic and financial safeties.</p>
<p>It’s interesting to us that our DS is advocating the LACs for the science teaching. DD is actually quite strong in physics and math. He says the right LAC would be a good place for her to build on this interest, says it is foolhardy to go major in history as she would probably do at her high reaches.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, your stalwart idealism (oxymoron?) is fascinating and sometimes vexing but I have come to admire it. I don’t subscribe to it by I respect it.</p>