<p>Of course, not everyone gets in to HYPSM. OTher universities that are well represented in this part of Asia include USC, UCLA, UWashington, UMichigan, NYU, BU, UBC, Santa Clara and a few other places. I think the parents who went to these schools or had family members who did are happy to have their children attend these well known, fine schools. The LAC’s- virtually all of them- are small. So, there are fewer alumnae in general, and very few in Asia. </p>
<p>It was not that easy to find LAC’s with relatively high % of international students when we looked. It was a big criterion for my son. Grinnell, where he ended up, is very effortful in recruiting in China and because they have a great computer science program (courtesy of the founder of Intel who is an alum), they get a high enrollment of internationals- about 15%. This is very, very unusual, however. </p>
<p>It is not that easy to travel across the world and then attend a university or college where you are the only person from your homeland and perhaps in a part of the country where there is not any social opportunity with your country mates. I think all of these are factors in how internationals pick schools, beyond the HYPSM issue.</p>
<p>Over the past ten years or so, I have been noticing increasing numbers of top-scoring children from the “professional striver classes” being priced out of elite unis and LAC’s, but welcomed with open arms and lots of generosity at honors colleges and other schools offering merit aid. At our public high school, about half of the graduates over the past decade have in fact taken large merit awards or gone to Schreyer, not just to save money but because of admission into programs with perks such as enhanced advising or access to meaningful undergrad research opportunities.</p>
<p>I have to wonder if perceptions of these schools will change as hiring managers from the “professional striver classes” (thanks for the term, sewhappy)find that they cannot stretch to afford HYP et al on a full-pay. Or, as the “professional striver classes” come to include increasing numbers of foreign-born managers who will struggle to get their children into elite schools and even encourage their children to take out loans if necessary to attend, will there be an increasing emphasis on undergrad pedigree, at least wrt to corporate recruitment?</p>
<p>Robyrm2 It is encouraging to see a broadening of perspective. In your part of Asia, are the universities you mentioned held in the same regard as HYPSM?</p>
<p>At Princeton there are about 200 international students (grad and undergrad) in each class. Extrapolating that out to the top 10 schools, say, that’s 2000 per class. If that were it, why would we even discuss such a tiny number?</p>
<p>The belief is rooted in ignorance because it presumes that only a very specific handful of elite schools in this country offer a quality education and attract smart students, when indeed the list of schools that do so in this country is far longer than HYPSM. The part where it becomes ignorant is with the unwillingness to learn, the unwillingness to say, “Hey, just because I haven’t heard of something doesn’t mean that it’s not good. I am not the expert on universities in other countries.” To be fair, though, I think the expat population here hasn’t done a great job in spreading the message back to their home countries - “hey, you know how you thought that life revolved around HYPSM and maybe UCLA, Berkeley and USC? It really doesn’t … there are lots of excellent schools here, not just those you are aware of.”<br>
.</p>
<p>PG Are you saying that graduates of HYPSM and the other schools you mentioned have an advantage in certain cultures because certain cultures have an unwillingness to overcome their ignorance? So attending these schools is important because one cannot convince everyone of their ignorance??</p>
<p>Is this really that important? If people wants to attend HYPSM, let them, if not, it is OK also. Why one group cares about another so much? Let them be whatever their values are even if you label them ignorant? So, they are ignorant, who cares? So, you are not ignorant. Who cares? They are inferior and you are superior, who cares? People do whatever they want and we should respect each other. Would not this be called civilized attitude?</p>
<p>If I had wanted to say that, I would have said that. I have been very clear in what I am saying. People whose judgment is based primarily on brand names, as opposed to a true understanding of quality, aren’t people that I think are worth impressing. I no more want to impress them, than I want to impress someone who thinks that decking oneself out in Louis Vuitton head to toe is “impressive.” I prefer evaluations on quality, not brand name. In many cases, the two are synonymous - obviously HYPSM are high quality - but so are many other things that don’t have as well known “names.” I reject the whole hypotheses that being widely known among the masses is an indication of quality.</p>
<p>Look, most people in my neck of the woods don’t know my daughter’s elite LAC. So what? Why on earth would that stop me from sending her there? What’s my goal here - to ensure she gets a good education, or to impress people who don’t know any better? Why does that differ if the audience in question is a) people in the midwest who think the sun rises and sets on Big Ten state schools or b) people in other countries who think the sun rises and sets on HYPSM? The whole concept of worrying about what other people think is the antithesis of elite, as far as I’m concerned.</p>
<p>^But it does bother you apparently that “people in the midwest …think the sun rises and sets on Big Ten state schools” and the others who think that a kid can get a good education absolutely everywhere as long as kid wants to get a good education. Yes, whole lot of valedictorians from private prep. HS’s do not apply to any top/elite colleges, they rely on fact, that it is up to them to obtain good education at any place that they feel a good match for them and they absolutely do not care if somebody else is going to HYPSM. They know that they will end up at the same place at the end, which normally happens. Is there any reason why people are bothered with others’ decision in regard to UG? Some want elite, others big ten, third CC and let employers pay for the rest (was my way, was fun way, you learn at both, school and work. I got huge advantage over others when looking for my next job. I had ample of experience and MBA while my field does not require MBA at all. It was strictly to impress HR and to obtain employment, but I did not pay for it, and I would not. If it is free, why not?).</p>
<p>“Look, most people in my neck of the woods don’t know my daughter’s elite LAC. So what? Why on earth would that stop me from sending her there? What’s my goal here - to ensure she gets a good education, or to impress people who don’t know any better?”</p>
<p>lay people down the block arent quite the same as an entire other country.</p>
<p>My DD is starting this week on her B Arch at RPI. </p>
<p>Some laypeople we travel with have heard of RPI (and mostly respect it) Some have not. EVERY architect or engineer we have spoken to has heard of RPI, and respects it. As far as the USA is concerned, thats enough. BUT - our DD (currently) is contemplating evenutally making aliyah to Israel. She doesnt care a bit that the produce sellers at Mahane Yehuda have heard of Technion, or Harvard, but not RPI. That architects, or for that matter clients, in Tel Aviv will be familiar with Technion, AND with Harvard, but not so much RPI, could become an issue at some point. </p>
<p>edit: I did not mean to exclude the possibility at a produce seller at Mahane Yehuda might be planning on building an architect designed home</p>
<p>MiamiDAP, I don’t care that people in the midwest don’t know my daughter’s LAC - that’s their problem, not hers. The only reason I “care” about the pressure of HYPSM-or-bust among the internationals is that it’s heartbreaking to read all these stories every year on CC about how people’s parents are just so disappointed in them for not getting into HYPSM and these young people are crushed, absolutely crushed because they’re being told that they’ll never accomplish anything and that they’ve already failed in life. I think that’s cruel treatment, and I’m sorry, I’m not going to be impressed by a culture that perpetuates that, especially when it’s not based in reality because there ARE great schools beyond HYPSM.</p>
<p>"MiamiDAP, I don’t care that people in the midwest don’t know my daughter’s LAC - that’s their problem, not hers. The only reason I “care” about the pressure of HYPSM-or-bust among the internationals is that it’s heartbreaking "</p>
<p>-You cannot change it, you break your heart or not. The only think you can do is to enjoy you own D. and let them ejoy their lives which apparently includes disappointments. Yes, some people enjoy to be dissapointed all the time, let them. It is their life. They do not have any problem with your “daughter’s LAC” either, just trust your own sense that everybody is into their own business, not yours. You know that, I am sure.</p>
<p>PG I think we are talking past each other. Maybe my last post should not have been phrased as “so what you are saying”. Of course you should not make a school choice to impress your neighbor or impress the world. But people in some cultures believe it is important where you go to school. Because some cultures believe this, the graduates of these schools have an advantage. You may not like this but do you believe this cultural this cultural bias exists?? I understand that you dont think it is “right” but do you think it exists?</p>
<p>Cultures do not exist to impress anybody, they just do. And if some want to impress others, it must be enjoyable for them, so why not? Either way, it does not matter. If we were all the same, it would be a boring world. Thank goodness, it is not the case.</p>
<p>"“lay people down the block arent quite the same as an entire other country.”</p>
<p>Same difference to me, if their decisions aren’t rooted in actual fact, but rather in random “what I’ve heard.” "</p>
<p>The difference is the consequences.</p>
<p>I KNOW that I am just as business like if I wear a black sweater, and just as creative if I wear a grey suit. If I’m interviewing with a bank, Im going to wear a suit. If Im interviewing with Apple, maybe not (I dont know if they would resent the black sweater though - Id try to research that first).</p>
<p>maybe you think that dishonest - I think its realistic. </p>
<p>I know for sure that in one case where I was called on to filter resumes (preinterview) for a consulting firm, I had a pretty good idea about US schools, and knew about the many good schools that arent Ivies. I know that I did not know so much about the overseas schools. I TRIED to gather other information from other people I knew, but I had limited time for the task. It was certainly easier to sort someone from Tokyo U (which I HAD heard of) than from some Japanese univ I had not heard of. I was NOT paid to know the quality of every university in the world. Perhaps they should have assigned this task to HR, but thats not how this consulting firm rolled. I can only assume there are people involved in hiring overseas who cannot reasonably be expected to keep up with every US university. </p>
<p>Its unfortunate if that causes international students to overfocus on Ivies, and neglect new ivies, public ivies, LACs, etc, etc, etc. OTOH in many such cases they will be well served by attending one of the best Universities in their home country. IF they are mostly interested in employment in the USA, of course then the Ivy focus is almost certainly not rational.</p>
<p>My DD has even mentioned transferring to Arch school in Israel (though right now she is enjoying Camp RPI)</p>
<p>As a parent, Id have to consider the possibility that she might do that, change her mind
about aliyah, and return to the USA. </p>
<p>Given that, my DW and I have suggested we would be supportive IF she got into Technion, to pursue Arch or Engineering (and could show us that her Hebrew was good enough to learn Arch in it). Or Hebrew U for engineering. Tel Aviv U for engineering, well we would have to think about it. Bezalel for Arch - well probably not. </p>
<p>For all I know Bezalel offers a great Arch education. However AFAICT (and I am open to evidence otherwise) a B Arch from Bezalel would NOT be a good credential in the USA. and by not good credential, I mean that when XYZ Design gets a resume that says Bezalel (rather than RPI or Technion or Harvard), they toss it on the reject pile. (either before or after shouting “has anyone here heard of this place?”) I think its not ignorant to think about that.</p>
<p>And, looking through the same lens, we could say that lot of domestic students do it equally!</p>
<p>The reality is that we have several thousand institutions of higher learning in the US, but overanalyze (and debate to death) the value of a few dozen schools. This is a rather interesting phenomenon because we seem to switch from debating the PUBLIC system of education in the K-12 to focusing on the private schools for the undergraduate years. Of course, I might change my mind if I were to venture in the private high school section of this forum!</p>