<p>I mean isn't every program teaching the same materials for the most part? Are premed courses curved? I suppose an elite school with have some high level gunners that will move the curve, making high marks harder to maintain? Is choosing an "easier" college in an attempt to guarantee a first-class GPA, etc. something people actually do?</p>
<p>Absolutely, STEM courses are curved at all colleges. However, “elite” colleges tend to award more A’s per class (%) than directional state U’s. That doesn’t equalize the difference, however.</p>
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<p>No they are not the same. Yes, they are teaching the same material, but the more selective colleges tend to go in more depth in their courses at an earlier level and the tests are more difficult. This past year I’ve been comparing math and science courses from real students taking those courses and from a couple of tests they’ve brought me. (I work in our local high school.) My youngest son has also done some college visitation and sat in on a couple of courses as well as taking a cc Bio course himself for DE in high school. He calls his cc course (equivalent to many lower selectivity colleges) “Bio-Lite” compared to those are more selective colleges. A specific example he gave was that in his Bio-Lite class they were talking about how “an enzyme helped speed up the process.” In the more selective college class they talked about multiple enzymes, by name, and what each specifically did. In each school the course was the equivalent of Bio 101.</p>
<p>Calc & Chem differ in the same way. With Calc it’s mainly more difficult questions on tests and delving more into theory + moving more quickly, often without the use of graphing calculators. With Chem and Bio it’s going deeper and covering more.</p>
<p>Since colleges tend to curve STEM classes, you’ll still have a good percentage getting As whether they score high on the tests or not, but the curves aren’t always super steep as the students are just bright and many DO get it at the more selective colleges. But give the same test to lower selective college students and they’d be blown away (without the classwork first).</p>
<p>NOTE: I obviously haven’t compared every single class at every single college and I haven’t done any classes outside of Chem, Bio, and Calc, but of the classes I have seen and students I have talked with I’ve yet to see an exception. (Naturally, there are some that are in the middle ground too.)</p>
<p>Many students do pick “easier” colleges for pre-med, but don’t think it will be super easy. You won’t be the only “smart” one in there competing for those grades. 
Also, many don’t necessarily pick “easier” colleges just because the classes are easier - they do it mainly for the merit aid… There can be high $$ for top students at “under the top” colleges and saving $$ for med school is important.</p>
<p>So why does any student choose a very selective school? As mentioned before, many of these students are bright and do get it - preferring in depth and similar peers to boredom. Some also get good money at more selective schools (sometimes merit, sometimes need-based, sometimes both).</p>
<p>A student can use either type of school to get to med school. (I’ve seen plenty of examples.) Just be sure the school you choose has successfully gotten students into med schools recently. Choose what fits you academically and financially, then do your part to be successful.</p>
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<p>What average %of class gets A at a typical STEM class at elite private (e.g. Duke/JHU) vs state like UVA/U Mich? Is it true that state univ professors are hard to impress?</p>
<p>In general, the “elite” privates curve to a low B in the intro science courses. (Of course, Brown is an outlier here.)</p>
<p>Top publics like Cal are close. But ‘regular’, non-elite publics have a much lower mean GPA. Heck, even within the UC system, Cal and UCLA awards more A’s as a % than the so-called lower tier UCs; the lowest Merced has a similar grading policy of the Cal States, which are down into the C range.</p>
<p>What percent of the class is awarded A at these private and public? Does 20% of the class gets A in the intro class at these public univ? or even lower? Just trying to get an idea “curve to low B” means what % is A.</p>
<p>One data point:</p>
<p>At D2’s elite (top 30) U, 15% of the class got As (includes A-) in intro level science classes (bio, gen chem, ochem, some calc classes).</p>
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That may be true at some elite privates (Brown, Harvard, UPenn etc.). When it comes to grading, not all elites are equal in their generosity. At Princeton “no more than 35% A grades” policy has been in force for the last several years and you can see the resultant downward pressure on the GPAs of the graduating students there. At my son’s school, JHU, many courses (certainly all pre-med courses) have harsh curves and no more that 20% A grades are awarded in those. Cornell is also known to have pretty harsh grading.</p>
<p>At some elite schools, there are two sources of the increased difficulty:
[ol]
[<em>]Harsh grading curves and strict quotas for A grades.
[</em>]The over-all higher caliber of the student population. For a smart kid, it’s a lot easier to be in the top 20% of a class at a state university, than it is at an elite private because everybody else is just as smart.
[/ol]</p>
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I think it depends on the state U – UCB and UVA, for instance, aren’t exactly the same as XYZ State University.</p>
<p>wowmom - 15% As seem awfully low. I think more common is 30% at most top schools.</p>
<p>I remember attending an MIT session a few years ago where they kept insisting they ignore AP Biology for credit because their beginner biology course covers that material in two weeks.</p>
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<p>Sounds generous to me. :)</p>
<p>But the big difference is the lack of bad grades. When a public has a C average, that means that a LOT of students earn D’s and F’s. UCB, Michigan and UVa give out plenty of F’s; students flunk out of college. Bad grades are more rare at top privates, where the ‘Gentlemen’s C’ has morphed into a higher grade. As an example, Stanford eliminated F’s a decade ago. Thus, it is virtually impossible to flunk out of Stanford.</p>
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<p>In absolute numbers, Cal Berkeley has more high SAT testers than does Harvard (and this is with a UC admissions policy that focuses more on GPA).</p>
<p>btw: according to several Big Red premed alums on cc, Cornell is as generous as the average Ivy.</p>
<p>“In absolute numbers, Cal Berkeley has more high SAT testers than does Harvard (and this is with a UC admissions policy that focuses more on GPA)”</p>
<p>This is technically true. So they might all be getting all the A’s at Berkeley as a percentage of A’s while at Harvard half of them settle for other grades?</p>
<p>In absolute numbers, Cal Berkeley has more students who get into a med school than a top private school. This is also the reason why there are many students from large public schools who score very high on MCAT each year.</p>
<p>At least this is true for UT Austin vs a smaller top private school.</p>
<p>But it is a different story if you are talking about the percentage rather than the absolute number.</p>
<p>I think one difference between a flagship state school and a school like Harvard is that the former emphasizes the stats mostly (especially GPA) while the latter emphasizes non-numerical merit like ECs as well. I read about this difference on my local paper while DS was a high schooler. They said if your goal is to get into a state university, you should pay attention to school work (e.g., GPA and class rank). At least it was true at that time.</p>
<p>I suspect that because the very top elite schools pay more attentions to the non-numerical merit of the applicants, it helps lock in a higher percentage of students from wealthy families. The state university has more responsibility to educate those who are not from such families.</p>
<p>In a recent article in Times magazine (I think), the president of ASU kind of implied that if their school is allowed to recruit the students from wealthy families only ( not necessarily super rich), their graduation rate in 5 years will be much higher. We can not deny the correlation between the ZIP code and the average achievement of the students who live in the area with that ZIP code.</p>
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This policy is across the board - not just for pre-med or entry level courses. At a lot of schools, including your favorite example, UC Berkeley, grading gets much more generous at higher level courses. That’s why you see the so called “upward trends” in GPA.</p>
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OK. I will bite. 
First of all, its not about absolute numbers, since absolute numbers are a reflection of the class size. Secondly, in UC Berkeley you picked the best state school that is ranked in the low 20’s per USNWR. I am not sure how that represents the average state school …</p>
<p>But, let’s just go with UC Berkeley, your pick of the state school (that represents your argument about how state schools are harder than elite privates) and my example of Princeton (that represents a grade deflated elite private). Let’s compare some numbers and find out the comparative smarts of the kids at these two schools.</p>
<p>Size of the Freshman class (source : college board):
Princeton: 2,094
UC Berkeley: 4,058</p>
<p>Incoming freshman GPA (source : college board) :
Princeton: 3.75+ - 86%
UC Berkeley: 3.75+ - 79%</p>
<p>Incoming freshman SAT scores (source : college board) :
Princeton: CR: 700-790, Math: 710-800
UC Berkeley: CR: 590-720, Math: 630-720</p>
<p>Selectivity (source : college board) :
Princeton: 8% acceptance
UC Berkeley: 18% acceptance</p>
<p>Average GPA of graduating students(source : gradeinflation.com) :
Princeton: 2008 - 3.28
UC Berkeley: 2006 - 3.27</p>
<p>Given the stats of the incoming freshman, the average kid at Princeton is measurably smarter than the average kid even the best state school - UC Berkeley. Therefore, many kids who are in the top 35% of Berkley, don’t stand a prayer of getting into the top 35% of the class at Princeton to get that coveted A grade, do they? And where is the higher grade deflation at Berkeley compared to Princeton?</p>
<p>Normally, that ought to debunk that theory. But then, this is CC where the beat always goes on. :D</p>
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Right on! Elite privates reject thousands of the so called valedictorians and salutatorians every year. On the other hand, schools like UT Austin and UC Berkeley give automatic admissions to kids in the top 5-10% of the high school classes.</p>
<p>Princeton class is set at 1300, while they may have admitted 2094. So Berkeley class is 3 times as large.</p>
<p><a href=“that%20represents%20your%20argument%20about%20how%20state%20schools%20are%20harder%20than%20elite%20privates”>quote</a>
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<p>Sorry, but that is just false. I have never, ever posted on cc that state schools are “harder than elite privates.”</p>
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<p>That is also false. </p>
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<p>…No doubt true of nearly every other college but Yale, Stanford and MIT, and Caltech, and perhaps AWSP, but I never said otherwise.</p>
<p>But carry. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>The bottom line is that at elites, you have a TON of high stats premeds all gunning for the limited number of A’s. </p>
<p>Think about it…if you go to a school where the top quartile has an ACT 35+ (or SAT equivalent) and a bunch at the school are premed, you’re less likely going to be one of the A students in those weeder classes.</p>
<p>But, if you go to a school where the upper quartile has an ACT 30+, and you have an ACT 33, then you’re more likely to get those A’s IF YOU PAY ATTENTION and do the work.</p>
<p>*Quote:
On the other hand, schools like…Berkeley give automatic admissions to kids in the top 5-10% of the high school classes.
*</p>
<p>Where did you get that crazy idea? Cal, UCLA, & San Diego do NOT have auto admissions no matter how high your stats are. Don’t apply Texas’ policy to other schools.</p>
<p>*Quote:
At Princeton “no more than 35% A grades” policy…
*</p>
<p>I don’t know about P specifically, but that may not apply to weeder classes. Weeder classes may be stricter.</p>
<p>*Many students do pick “easier” colleges for pre-med, but don’t think it will be super easy. You won’t be the only “smart” one in there competing for those grades. *</p>
<p>Yes, that is a good strategy. That’s the strategy my son used and graduated with a 3.99 cum GPA (one A- in a Spanish class) and a 4.0 BCMP. </p>
<p>The worst strategy can be happily getting accepted to an elite school (without being well-within the top quartile) and then emerging with a GPA that isn’t med school worthy. I’ve seen a number of those med school applicants get ZERO med school acceptances. If they had taken their ACT 33’s and had attended a mid-tier, they would have had a better chance at snagging those A’s if they had put forth the effort.</p>
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Well, not may be not exactly as quoted… Here is what you said in post# 5 of this thread:
May be I misinterpreted what you said, but to me it sounded that you were trying to say exactly that - only in different words.</p>
<p>Now, lets take a look at a quote you attributed to me.
First of all, you edited what I said and made it look like an exact quote by putting it into a quote. Let’s get past that (since what I said is right here in post #14)…</p>
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How so? I gave 2 schools as examples - UT Austin and UC Berkeley. Here is the proof for UT Austin: [Automatic</a> Admission | Be a Longhorn](<a href=“http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/decisions/automatic-admission]Automatic”>http://bealonghorn.utexas.edu/freshmen/decisions/automatic-admission). With UC Berkeley, the guarantee seems to be for somewhere in UC System. Here is a quote from UC Berkeley admissions brochure:</p>
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But that was neither my point nor was that directed at you. You edited out the main point I was trying to make. I was just trying to debunk the theory that it is harder to get A grades at a state school than it is at an elite private.</p>