<p>DS mentioned to us at one time the MD/PhDs in his class tend to study harder than MD students do on average, in preclinical years at least.</p>
<p>It may be not surprising that the average of STEP-1 scores of MD/PhD students in your class is higher. I wonder how many MD/PhD students belong to the “top 560 scorers” in the example I mentioned above. If, say, there are 160 MD/PhDs who score in that range (top 2% or top 560 scorers), it leaves 400 test takers with these high scores in the regular MD programs national wise.</p>
<p>“the MD/PhD average is higher than the MD average”
-I do not know statistics, but D. was actually told that usually MD/PhD average is lower that the MD average. She was told that as an additional aspect of residency applications when “MD/Phd are ahead of MD despite their lower score” - quoted is what she was told. The person (in charge of one of the most selective residency at D’s school) has actually stated that the reason is unknown while she thought that maybe MD/PhD rely on their deeper science background and not prepare as hard, but again, it is just one person comment, but again, she see lots and lots of applications from the very top applicants since those with lower Step 1 scores simply would not apply.</p>
<p>There are A LOT MORE MDs than MD/PhDs. So the number of high scorers in the absolute number is larger. When the pool of test takers is much larger, it is likely that some students from this larger pool would do it right (e.g., study 14 hours instead of 9/10 hours to prep for STEP-1 like your D did :)) and would get a high score. </p>
<p>This reminds me that the S of Pharmagal had 267 and the S of Hubba’sdad (sp?) had 257. I believe they attended a public med school in their respective states.</p>
<p>There are much more public med school students so they will have their share of high scorers too. (An analogy is that, in abosolute numbers – not percentage of their class, public colleges may have quite many high MCAT scorers too.)</p>
<p>
One SDNer posted (I do not know whether it is true) that the STEP-1 class average of HMS is not many points higher than that of Tufs. But the students from HMS still match extremely well, just because of coming from “THE” HMS. I guess these students are particularly astonishing at doing the ECs because it is in this EC area that distinguishes them from other students who do not get into HMS. So these students may continue to do great in ECs at HMS, which help them in their match. (It does not hurt there are many top residency programs in Boston, just in their backyard.)</p>
<p>When I was referencing MD/PhD average vs. MD average I was referring just to my own school.</p>
<p>I have been told by my MD/PhD director though that the national Step 1 average of MD/PhDs (at least MSTPs) is higher than MD, but the MS3 shelf scores and step 2 are lower. This is because the 3-5 year break for the PhD obviously leads to lots of knowledge loss as well as the fact that the PhD way of thinking is fundamentally at odds with MD thinking and MSTP students often struggle to quickly retrain themselves.</p>
<p>You just reminded me about MS3. It is a brutal physical torture, forget shelf scores, we are praying for survival, I am having headaches, not my normal experience, keeping myself so busy while trying very hard not to think about how my kid feels at the moment…</p>
<p>^ To clarify, i know your D is at a private med school (actually likely know exactly which one. LOl.) Like norcalguy once posted: after a CCer has had several thousands of posts, he has very little secret.</p>
<p>I mentioned those two students from public med school to show my point that there are no lack of high achievers in public med schools in term of the absolute numbers.</p>
<p>IWBB, Hmmm… Many students at DS’s school take one year off after MS3 to do research. It may have some effects on some clinical training related test if they take it after going off to do research for a year. This goes back to the point i raised about different purposes/missions at different school or different individual’s focus. Since this is a premed forum, an analogy is that, as it is often mentioned here, learning something too “deep” in science in college could even hurt a person’s performance on MCAT, as he may think too much during the MCAT test. In a sense, although i may exaggerate it here, there are “premed science” and “PhD-track science”; there may be differences as a premed really does not have to go too deep. That is the reason why some people may say that premeds only need to learn just enough to be above the A or ocasionally A- cutoff in their prereqs, not anymore. But it is a different story for those who will be MD/PhD who needs as much PhD-bound trainings as possible as an UG.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Research years by MD students are almost always taken between year 3 and year 4 (for example, at my school usually 1/4 to 1/3 of students take a research year and 100% of them do it between Y3 and Y4) which means it is after the shelf exams and after step 2. Additionally, this year of research is rarely as basic science focused as a PhD and certainly not as in depth.</p></li>
<li><p>You definitely can go too deep for the MCAT and even step 1, there were certain areas where I had to remind myself that the test is simply not as nuanced as my knowledge was, but honestly, the MCAT’s knowledge base is relatively small (especially compared to shelf and USMLE exams) but I don’t really buy that this is a big factor for MSTP students in MD3 and MD4 (or pre-meds on the MCAT). If you are practicing, you will quickly figure out the test’s limits. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I think the issues are mainly lost knowledge, the switch back to multiple choice testing, and the pacing. You know A LOT at the end of step 1 studying, and unlike normal med students, you could spend as many as 5 years not touching that knowledge and then be matched up with students who are literally just weeks out from that exam. Every exam in med school is multiple choice, none of my exams in grad school are. Every exam in med school (particularly standardized ones) have relatively short time limits. Grad school just doesn’t impose that kind of quick, under the gun thinking in the same way.</p>
<p>Lastly, there is also the issue of how you’re graded by preceptors on the wards. Here is where I think the PhD vs. MD mindset can be harmful more so than on the exams. Without resorting to petty stereotypes, there really is a fundamental difference in the focus/interest of most MDs compared to most MD/PhDs, and some schools, and some preceptors within schools, do better jobs than others at embracing that instead of punishing it.</p>
<p>I suspect that some science majors may need to have aome adjustment of the way of learning when they go from UG to med school. I am not talking about the different demand here; i am talking about the way to approach the science learning. Early in MS1, DS said they made the students to learn it “in a bad way.” I guess he was in the “adjustment” period at that time. He did not complain about it later on.</p>
<p>Its been a while since anything close to the original topic was last discussed in this thread, may be its time to let it fade away, and channel the remainder of the interesting conversation to the random med school stuff thread. Just a thought …</p>
<p>Agree. Not sure why so many good posts related to post premed are being posted here. I need to figure out if there is a way to strip them and move…</p>
<p>“Many students at DS’s school take one year off after MS3 to do research”
-yes, some do, but it is not my D’s choice. Still have to see, but she is doing research as one of her rotations. She split it in half. Going back to research in a fall. The reason that she has split it is to have 2 breaks from regular rotaions, since research is practically a vacation in comparison. She said it was a very good decision.
Got 2 good news yesterday. First, she got her first choice for the Neurology/Psych rotation and it is absolutely envious, so happy for her. The second but the most important news was that she has gone from the “I will adjust” stage to “I am adjusting”. It is so different with the girls, the emotions are much higher, but I hope for no headache today, she sounded so much better. She even figured out the shoes. If it is helpful at all, I would like to mention her solution. She said that she is alternating shoes because different shoes have different pressure points and it works for her. I did not know that she is THAT smart!!</p>
<p>First, she got her first choice for the Neurology/Psych rotation and it is absolutely envious, so happy for her. The second but the most important news was that she has gone from the “I will adjust” stage to "I am adjusting</p>
<p>I spoke with an MS3 while we were in the operating room. Med school has certainly change a bit since I graduated. Particularly in the different options of concurrent degrees. Let me say that I am very happy that MD/PHDs exist and have helped made the medical discoveries that we benefit from. But a year or more away from medical school can have a significant negative effect on overall knowledge. The MD/PHDs I’ve worked with as an MS3 or MS4 were way behind in their clinical knowledge. Some were away from medicine for 2 - 4 years. I think they finally caught up during residency. I completed all of my research concurrently MS2-MS4. It definitely helped with landing a competitive residency program. Other than my summer and winter breaks, I don’t remember how I devoted all the time I needed. I know I used a lot of my engineering knowledge to make my research successful. Anyway, my point is to consider that there are benefits and ramifications when you take time away from your medical training.</p>
<p>“Other than my summer and winter breaks, I don’t remember how I devoted all the time I needed.”
-D. had one summer off, she went abroad to work at clinics and polish further her Spanish and did not have enough time after to be in Research. So, she will have only about 4 months. Her communication skills continue serving her well.</p>