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<p>My reading was that the insulation was only about academics. Nothing else. There’s something to learn from everyone, but that doesn’t mean that you’re a snob to want your political science seminar filled with people who are eager to discuss the details of the 1962 election.</p>
<p>To be quite frank, I want to go to a top school because I know I will be exposed to an intensely competitive environment. This isn’t because I want the best education so that I can get a good job - it’s because I want to advance myself greatly in mathematics, I find competition absolutely exhilarating. Kids these days seem to think competition in the classroom is detrimental - clearly, these kids are just afraid of losing. Failure, coming up short, not being as good as the guy or gal next to you - these are all things common to students attending top schools, who may in their high schools have been at the top of their class. The point is, failure should be a catalyst for you to work harder, not for you to decide that you’re better off in a less intense environment.</p>
<p>And please. Just because a person is competitive and driven does not mean they are evil, hostile, and pretentious. To assume so is making a blanket generalization, and at that a completely unjustified one. Every school out there has a good social atmosphere, it’s just about finding the right one for you. To be quite frank, most people would probably be happy socially at any school.</p>
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<p>Well, you know, Hunt, I spent well over a decade at Ivy League schools, and at each of them I encountered definite, and hardly small, undergraduate subcultures of flashy-but-shallow social snobs, party animals, and defiantly anti-intellectual jock types who were there because of exceptional “accomplishments” on the lacrosse pitch or somewhere back in the ancestral tree. Not everyone who attends an Ivy is “accomplished” in “intellectual” matters, and I didn’t find it at all easy to “insulate myself” from those who weren’t; they were usually pretty loud and obnoxious about it. And frankly, if you’re looking for that kind of “insulation” in the classroom, it may be easier to find it at a bigger school where there’s a separate honors track. At an Ivy, the anti-intellectual louts are actually in the same classroom with you.</p>
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<p>A decent and decently large state flagship is very likely to have a cohort of extremely bright math majors who will provide an intellectual (in math) peer group for you. What they may not be, in comparison to those at super-selective schools, are those who have the “rest of the package” that gains admission to the super-selective schools (e.g. “hooks”, extracurriculars, a well rounded high school academic profile with A grades in everything, super high test scores in everything, etc.). But their “defects” (in terms of admissions to the super-selective schools) do not mean that they are inferior intellectually in math (would having only a 650 on the SAT-CR or not having 1000s of non-math-competition EC hours or not being a legacy really be relevant when discussing math problems?).</p>
<p>llazar – No one on here has said, or even implied, that people who are competitive and driven are also evil, hostile, and pretentious. (I couldn’t possibly believe that, because my driven and competitive daughter is good, friendly, and fairly humble.) However, it’s fair to say the following: Someone who has the “I’m better than others” attitude (which is a very different thing from being competitive and driven) is more likely to treat those others, especially people he/she sees as “lower” in whatever way, unkindly.</p>
<p>My daughter is one of those students who might well have been admitted to an Ivy League school had she applied (and, yes, I’m aware that there are no givens). She is very intelligent, and she absolutely savors competition. She is at her state university not because she has ever been “afraid of losing” – and woe be unto anyone who would even suggest such a thing to her! Like so many of her classmates, she chose to go there because she loves everything about the school, and the fact that it is not many hundreds of miles away from home was a positive for her. She relishes being in class with many incredibly bright students who are as driven and motivated as she, but she does not seek to insulate herself from students who might not be as bright. She’s done just the opposite, tutoring (for free) a couple of classmates who were struggling – and she savors that role. Can’t you tell that I’m proud of her? :)</p>
<p>bclintonk – You made me laugh.</p>
<p>There’s only one top 20 school that I’m aware of where it seems that the student body tends to think of themselves as “better” (as in - better, more worthwhile people, as opposed to just accomplished and driven) and I would expect the rude-to-the-janitor behavior. It’s not an Ivy. But I’m not going to name it :-)</p>
<p>bclintock:</p>
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<p>Try re-reading the post you referred to and tell me where I expressed that the Ivy’s have a lock on bright and accomplished people. We both know that tens of thousands are refused admission who are fully capable of doing the work and that additional tens of thousands don’t even apply as expressed by other posters. If you want to attack my post, which on re-reading seems very reasonable even within the contexts of what others posted afterwards, then try not to make up ideas I never expressed.</p>
<p>Since PizzaGirl can legitimately claim expertise in the culture of only one top 20 university, it’s no secret which one she means.</p>
<p>When one can’t make a reasonable argument, insult the poster and their school. Nice :rolleyes:</p>
<p>I am trying to follow what Marsian posted (#177)…</p>
<p>I would like to know if those kids at top 10 private school are rude to lowly paid hired helps because they are intellectually superior or they are well off. I know 50+% students at top 10 private schools are on FA, so not all of them could be that well off. If most students at highly selective schools are rude, then it must be because they are very intelligent and they think people who do menial work are beneath them. If that’s the case, there are some very intelligent students at second tier schools, but according to Marsian, some how all of those students are polite, sensitive, and considerate to people who do menial work. The only way that could happen is if adcoms from highly selective private schools and second tier state schools know how to select right kind of intelligent students for their schools - oh, he is very smart and seem to be a bit of a jerk, so lets take him to our highly selective private school. oh, he is very smart and seem to be very kind hearted, lets take him at our second tier school.</p>
<p>I am sure there are some very wealthy students at second tier school as at highly selective private school, but some how those wealthy students at second tier school would know how to treat janitors and housekeepers better. I don’t get that.</p>
<p>“would like to think that the attitude that it’s necessary for the intellectually gifted to insulate themselves from the rest of us is not the prevalent attitude at most highly selective schools”</p>
<p>Funnily enough, I’ve heard there are high schools that pride themselves on being for the intellectually gifted and don’t just let any poor schleb in. It stands to reason, those kids must also be nasty and elitist towards the janitors and help, since they clearly just want to hang with their own kind.</p>
<p>Annasdad - cute, but I was thinking of a school about 1000 miles away.</p>
<p>No, those high schools must know how to admit righ kind of intellectually gifted who are kind and considerate.</p>
<p>^It’s not just janitors and housekeepers. A friend of mine was recently visiting her nephew, who attends a certain “upper” Ivy. Her nephew’s friend from school stopped over while she was there, and was loudly lamenting having to room with the “financial aid kids” on his study abroad trip. (These kids were classmates at a well-known east coast prep school before college.) </p>
<p>Related to that, my son decided not to apply to Bowdoin after seeing the section on the school’s website entitled “What’s it like being a financial aid student at Bowdoin?”</p>
<p>My son had a touch of arrogance well before he got to an Ivy! However, he also had a habit of not just being considerate to, but making friends with custodians, maintenance staff and food servers. When he left Phila for Denver a few years ago he gave a bottle of wine to the guy who ran the food cart where he got his breakfast every morning. The maintenance guys at the student high rise where he lived pretended not to see his illegal cat. He wasn’t being fake, either. He liked these folks. It just turned out to be helpful, too! H and I have a wide range of friends and I think this may be one of the few good things I have modeled for my kids.</p>
<p>“No, it’s a deficiency in his soul, or failing that, a deficiency in his upbringing. It’s got nothing to do with his education, whatsoever.”</p>
<p>I’d probably say the same thing and some. He might be born incapable of connecting.</p>
<p>“Are the Ivies worth all the bother?”</p>
<p>Yes for some. I wish my friend’s kid were at an Ivy where they could pay one third of what they are paying now at a state school.</p>
<p>^I’m sure there are those kinds at any highly selective school - a large percentage of kids of privilege, with parents fortunate enough to be able to consider college as a luxury good, are likely to be over-entitled. But I would think - would hope, anyway - that they are not in the majority there. But perhaps I’m just being naive.</p>
<p>Lol, there are plenty of kids at any state school whose parents are well to do too. What, you don’t think there aren’t plenty of your stereotypical North Shore snobby rich kid at U of I? Give me a break.</p>
<p>After spending time on many colleges campuses through my extra curricular interests & college visits with my daughters I developed a theory on the different “vibes” sent out by different colleges regarding manners, respect, etc. of the students. The most selective colleges base their admissions not only on the “stats” but also on letters of rec., essays, EC’s…which tends to “weed out” pompous, selfish kids. The next “level” of colleges (based on selectivity) tend to rely almost soley on stats. We have felt a more “elitist” vibe from small, expensive, not very selective, LAC’s, than we ever did from Ivy league schools.</p>