Are the Ivies worth all the bother?

College Search & Selection
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<p>As for students “insulat[ing] [themselves] from the people who are not that accomplished and not that interested in intellectual stuff” – Wow, just wow.</p>

<p>One of the most “prestigious” private universities in the country is located not that far from my home. One of my relatives attended it. She was horrified to find out that many of the students in that “Heaven help us should we be around anyone below our high intellectual standards” atmosphere let that attitude carry right over into how they treated the housekeeping, grounds, and cafeteria staff. She went on to graduate, but she says that she would never let her children go to her alma mater, even on full scholarship.</p>

<p>So, when I go on college visits with my children, I make it a point to talk to someone on the cleaning staff about the students and to observe whether the students have friendly conversations with the people serving their plates in the cafeteria. I try to find out whether the students treat the lower-paid workers with as much respect as they treat their professors. So far the state universities and religiously-affliliated colleges have it all over the more exclusive private universities for student-staff relationships.</p>

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Well, I expected this reaction, but I don’t feel bad about making the point. Indeed, everybody really agrees with it to some degree–nobody thinks a kid who is ready for calculus should have to sit in a math class with kids who are still working on basic algebra. I’m not claiming the difference is that great, of course, but it’s real.</p>

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<p>We’ve come full circle, back to my (still unanswered) original question: if there is an educational advantage of attending a school where there are “less-accomplished” students, then why doesn’t this show up in the data?</p>

<p>Actually, I can posit at least partial answers to my own question, if not necessarily confirmed by the data, at least hinted at by it. It may be that the best and the brightest who, for whatever reasons, wind up at the less-selective colleges, (a) tend to cluster in the more challenging courses, courses that the less-intellectually-inclined students avoid, and/or (b) are more adept at and are more willing to engage in the types of behaviors that research shows leads to better educational outcomes at institutions of all types. And a third possibility, one for which I don’t know of any data (which decidedly doesn’t mean there isn’t any), perhaps the most-gifted students at less-selective institutions get more attention from faculty members than they would if they had to compete with a whole institution full of intellectual peers.</p>

<p>If any or all of those do in fact obtain, then it would explain, at least in part, why students of like capabilities do just as well on the measures of educational achievement at institutions of widely different selectivities.</p>

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<p>How do you know? Have you been an English major at Maryland? Have you sat in on English classes at Maryland? Have you examined the papers written by English majors at Maryland?</p>

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<p>I think there is ZERO relationship between the importance of treating cleaning / cafeteria / janitorial staff / anyone whom you interact with with grace and good manners - which is simply part of being a good person – and the desire to be among one’s peers intellectually. I think it is arrogant to suggest that the student who desires to be among intellectual peers would necessarily be a little snot to the janitor or cafeteria worker.</p>

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<p>I know kids who went to Maryland, and kids who didn’t. It’s possible that the English majors are more accomplished, on average, than the general run of kids who go there.</p>

<p>Another possibility for the data is that students are actually pretty good at figuring out what is a good fit for them.</p>

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This might be a difference between Harvard and Yale.</p>

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<p>All the more reason to send your own children there so that they can set a better example for other students! :smiley: Suggestion 2: have all incoming students to selective schools watch “Good Will Hunting” before matriculation. :wink: </p>

<p>Last year D1 was picking up a package at mail services. The clerk said “Oh, I read your article in the paper yesterday and really enjoyed it.” Made D1’s day. Week, even.</p>

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<p>Sorry, PG, but there’s enormous carryover. Those who consider themselves superior often act that way. Not everyone, of course, but many. If you spent four years on the North Shore and didn’t observe that, it was because you didn’t have your eyes open.</p>

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<p>Now we can circle back around to that article written by the Ivy-educated guy who blames his Ivy education for not being able to talk to the plumber. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>^ At least he acknowledges it as a deficiency in his education.</p>

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<p>No, it’s a deficiency in his soul, or failing that, a deficiency in his upbringing. It’s got nothing to do with his education, whatsoever.</p>

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<p>I’m not intimidated by the North Shore of Chicago or any other well-to-do area. People everywhere put their pants legs on one at a time. Are you uncomfortable or uneasy among well-to-do people / situations?</p>

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<p>Nope, not intimidated, just observant.</p>

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<p>And, as an expert on his education, soul, and upbringing, you’re more qualified to make that analysis than he is.</p>

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<p>The absolutely most charming individual I know has a Yale undergrad degree, spent 3 years as a fellow at one of the ancient English universities, and is now a grad student at yet another Ivy. Went to private school K-12, too. So I don’t buy it when another Yale grad says that it was the fault of his private elite education that he couldn’t figure out how to talk to other people.</p>

<p>Blame it on individual differences (introvert v extrovert) or parenting (how did the parents treat the checker at the grocery store?).</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl – You misunderstood my point. I understand why students want to be among their intellectual peers. However, it is one thing to want to be among intellectual peers and another to want to “insulate yourself from the people who are not that accomplished and not that interested in intellectual stuff”. The best people I know are those who make sure that they don’t “insulate” themselves from anyone, whether they are poor, of a different race, or just not as intellectual. They realize that there is something to learn from everyone. Although you called my view “arrogant,” that is about as opposite from arrogant as I can imagine.</p>

<p>The story of my relative’s experience at a highly selective private university was to illustrate what can happen when people have the opinion that they are better than others. So many of the students at that University have probably been told from a young age that they are the smartest, deserve the best, and that they can’t “settle” for anything less than the best and most expensive education. Few have lived among lower income people, and some of them look very much down their noses on those who are “less” than they are.</p>

<p>My point in an earlier post was that in many parts of the country, far from Ivies, people do not have that mentality with education. They may be the best and brightest, but they do not grow up with the Ivy or top 10 school pressures that so many have. When you grow up knowing that your state university can provide a strong education, and you are happy with that, knowing full well that not every student will be Ivy brilliant, but that you will be surrounded by plenty of smart students, then you are less likely to think that you are more deserving than anyone else.</p>

<p>There is a load of difference in how employees are treated at some universities. I’ll give you two notable examples of universities with which I am familiar. These examples come from my observations during my many times on both campuses, as well as from accounts from Private U students and graduates.</p>

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<li><p>Top-10 Private U: Students routinely leave their empties all over campus (not just at fraternities) on weekends because, students say, “the janitors will pick them up”. Housekeepers complain that the students are rude to and otherwise mistreat them and that administrators won’t listen to their concerns. The university has a reputation of having students with an entitlement mentality.</p></li>
<li><p>Second-tier (in state) State U: Students walk up to the woman sweeping the cafeteria floor and give her hugs. She smiles and talks about how much she loves “her children”. She knows them by name and they rave about the chicken soup she brings them IN THEIR DORMS when they’re sick. Students smile and chat with the housekeepers. Trash is non-existent – they’re too eco-minded anyway. :)</p></li>
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<p>Now, I am fully aware that there are also nice people at Top-10 Private U (I’ve known some of them) as well as not-so-nice people at Second-Tier State U. No matter what Top-10 Private U offers, however, I would far rather have my child at Second-Tier State U. There are still plenty of very intelligent people there, but more importantly there is a pervasive atmosphere of kindness and openness to others who are often seen as “less”.</p>

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<p>And I’ll add, for the record, that I have an Ivy-educated relative who is a wonderful, caring person. I adore her. She grew up rather poor and went on scholarship, so she’d had a huge dose of humility before she ever started. :)</p>

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<p>I would like to think that the attitude that it’s necessary for the intellectually gifted to insulate themselves from the rest of us is not the prevalent attitude at most highly selective schools. </p>

<p>But I may be deluding myself.</p>

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<p>Yes, in one sense there is something to learn from everyone in the most global, we-are-the-world sense. The sun set and rose on my grandfather, who was a blue-collar steelworker with a high school education who worked 2 jobs to put food on the table (think Archie Bunker minus the racism). I learned a lot from him in terms of overall life lessons. But that doesn’t mean we would be best suited to be in the same classroom together. And I don’t think it’s arrogant to want reasonably similar intellectual peers in the classroom or social environment. Annasdad’s resentment aside, I don’t see the connection between wanting smart people around you for your college experience, and showing graciousness to everyone you encounter. You know, plenty of spoiled C-students at Party-On State U are rude to the housekeepers and janitors too.</p>

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<p>Yes, absolutely I consider it a failure of his upbringing and / or his soul that he can’t figure out how to engage in friendly small talk with a honest plumber who is in his household doing work. Shame on him, really. All his fancy-schmancy degrees are for naught if he’s that kind of a person. I would be EMBARRASSED to be described as, or to describe myself as, that kind of person. It speaks volumes about him that he’s not even shamed by it.</p>