<p>From a Californian’s perspective: the UCs are an excellent education for the in-state price; they are not a good value for the OOS price - for that price I would choose Stanford or USC over Cal and UCLA (and actually I would choose Stanford and USC over Cal and UCLA at the in-state price, where cost is not an issue).</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>UCSD’s biomedical engineering program is highly rated…</p>
<p>
I agree here…</p>
<p>…except I don’t consider the Engineering / Chemistry at Cal, Bio Med Eng at UCSD, or Ecology at UC Davis as specialty programs. These are just particularly strong everyday programs at the universities. I only consider a program a “specialty program” if the class sizes are small and the resources disproportionately large for a body of students. In other words, you have to be getting roughly the value you would at a private university.</p>
<p>Bay:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s a pretty strong blanket statement. Maybe you should explain yourself.</p>
<p>Professionally, absolutely, Stanford is above Cal and UCLA - UCLA is actually pretty close to Stanford wrt producing attys when adjusted for undergrad enrollment, and both UCs are pretty close to LSJU in producing Mds with the same adjustments; however, USC isn’t in either UCs league wrt producing attys or MDs, or generally, high-powered professionals. </p>
<p>PizzaGirl:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I would think that many, maybe even the predominant number, of oos students who come out west (or south, north, or east in the case of Hawaii) to attend a UC school probably plan on staying in CA and becoming professionals out here. I think this would be particularly true for small-town USA. If their intentions weren’t such when they enrolled, then attending school in CA might convince them of settling here. There’s so much to do out here for anyone’s tastes.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>That’s why the OP and other oos students interested in UC should visit the schools and decide which is more suited to them. There are undoubtedly some students who have pointed towards UCB or UCLA and found that UCSB (or UCSD or UCI or UCSC…) was more suited to them. SBCC (beautiful campus, great location, btw, better than UCSB) has a lot of these students pointing towards UCSB, as does SMC for UCLA.</p>
<p>Depends if you have a quality in-state flagship. Do you live in a Big Ten state? Do you live in Washington? Do you live in North Carolina or Virginia? Do you live in Texas?</p>
<p>If you answered yes to any of the above, then paying oos for a UC school does not make sense.</p>
<p>If you live in Idaho…or Nevada…or Utah…or Oklahoma, Arknasas or any SEC state not named Florida and want to go to a top notch public university and have the grades, rank and scores (AND FINANCIAL MEANS) for a UC campus, then they are very viable options.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Ok. Obviously there is no dispute that Stanford trumps both Cal and UCLA. I don’t judge a college by medical and law school admissions statistics as you do; i judge them by overall undergraduate experience. To me, the USC undergraduate experience is better than UCLA (and is higher ranked now by USNWR, if that matters) and Cal. This is a personal opinion, but one that I am not alone in. Quite a few students at our local h.s. chose USC over UCLA and Cal, because USC offers a stronger-knit community, more school spirit, and a less institutional feel than UCLA and Cal. USC also has a much more stable future. If my kids were choosing between USC and UCLA/Cal, I would encourage them to choose USC.</p>
<p>Bay:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Wrt academics, sure. But wrt, say, quality of life, that’s debatable, less discernable. If someone wants to experience LA over SF, who’s to say?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>USC displaced UCLA in the USN’s rankings because of the change in Peer Assessment, with weights given to hs counselors for the first time, and a portion of weight taken away from college deans, presidents. Frankly, I respect a dean/president’s opinion more than a hs counselor, especially with the public v private university dyamic. A hs counselor in Wisconsin would know less about UCLA than USC.</p>
<p>Also, let me add that USN’s rankings are too input dependent as opposed to output, eg, the quality of grads in the workforce, etc. Therefore, you have colleges/universities working the variables to USN’s rankings, without a lot of regard to outputs.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Do you mind divulging the high school? I would understand if you wouldn’t want to. If not, could you give the county? I’m guessing since your name is Bay, the hs would be somewhere like San Mateo or Santa Clara? I actually want to see the quality and quantity of students from this area that choose UCLA and Cal. Also, public or private? </p>
<p>“stronger knit community”? I can see that, though USC is large also.</p>
<p>“more school spirit”? I think UCLA would be competitive in this and Cal would be up-and-coming because of better sports teams. Most o/s students don’t choose a university primarily by school spirit.</p>
<p>“less of an institutional feel…”? I’m not sure what this means, perhaps a specific for-instance would be in order.</p>
<p>“more stable future”? Maybe, but both Cal and UCLA should be okay after Arnold leaves, and both are attracting more full-tuition payers.</p>
<p>I can actually see the things you state, though I wouldn’t entirely agree.</p>
<p>sentiment:</p>
<p>Actually, the College of Chemistry at Cal is small (relatively) and the resources are outsized. </p>
<p>And at Davis, I was referring to the Wine program – enology – not ecology. Whether to consider it a speciality or specialized…I’ll leave to the grammarians, since that is above my pay grade. :)</p>
<p><a href=“http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/[/url]”>http://wineserver.ucdavis.edu/</a></p>
<p>Pizzagirl, for those who have the money to send their children to expensive schools, UCSD and UCSB are worth the penny. What you don’t understand is that, many affluent students want to enjoy college life too, and obviously, UCSB and UCSD won’t disappoint you in that area. I have friends who turned down Columbia, Brown and UofC in favor of the American University of Paris (AUP). AUP is not as prestigious as Columbia, obviously, yet those students turned it down for AUP. They believe they’d enjoy at AUP more as it is in Paris, and they’re thrilled to learn French. In the same way that there are many students who love to go to a California school for the education, plus the sun, white sand and beaches.</p>
<p>UCSB is in a fantastic location. It is not as prestigious as Berkeley, but academically, it is not far behind either. So, if you can’t get into Berkeley and you really love to be in California, UCSB would serve you that quite brilliantly. You should visit UCSB first before you say something against it. I’d rather spend college life at UCSB than at Emory, Vanderbilt, Notre Dame or Georgetown. Of course, I can understand why some people would choose otherwise.</p>
<p>Bay, to say that the undergraduate experience at USC is better than at Berkeley is highly debatable. USC is a big school, only slightly smaller than Berkeley, as a whole. Almost everything you can find at USC can also be found at Berkeley. The social scene at Berkeley is great too plus it has the prestige, not just amongst the ordinary people, but including the top employers. The close-knit environment you’re talking about USC does not extend beyond college life. USC grads are not as targeted are Berkeley grads are. USC grads don’t make as much as Berkeley grads do. Intelligent students are aware about that that’s why Berkeley would often win in a cross-admit battle between it and USC. For the intellectual elite, USC is just a dumping ground for Stanford, Caltech, Berkeley and the Claremont colleges rejects. Sad but true.</p>
<p>I agree that UCSD and UCSB are not what a lot of California’s think they are. No one has any real knowledge of these schools outside of Cali. That isn’t to say they aren’t great schools, it’s just that they aren’t what some on this thread are claiming they are.</p>
<p>. I only consider a program a “specialty program” if the class sizes are small and the resources disproportionately large for a body of students.</p>
<p>A lot of people forget about the [College</a> of Creative Studies](<a href=“http://www.ccs.ucsb.edu/]College”>http://www.ccs.ucsb.edu/) at UCSB, which is comparable to a LAC, yet set within a large public university. The stats of admitted students to CCS is about the same as general UCB/UCLA admits, and CCS produces [Nobel</a> laureates](<a href=“http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=2102]Nobel”>Public Affairs & Communications | Institutional Advancement) as well. I’d say this college is probably worth it for out of state students.</p>
<p>And as RML mentioned, the social aspect shouldn’t be overlooked either. UCSB probably has the best “party/academic ratio” in California, and unlike most other California public colleges, almost no one goes home on the weekends.</p>
<p>A lot of the UCs are in extremely prime real estate. I’d rank them as follows:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>UCSD - bluffs of La Jolla - disconnect with students, though, who are pretty serious, less party-type, though with distinctive surfer set. </p></li>
<li><p>UCSB - bluffs of Santa Barbara. Help me out rc251, it’s not really Isla Vista, which is adjacent, nor Goleta (though the SB people I know claim the school is in IV). Self-contained party central along with SBCC students. Lot of surfers. (RIP to the body-boarder who was killed probably by a great white.)</p></li>
<li><p>UCLA - prime real estate; one can say the school is essetially located in the Platinum Triangle. Close enough to Pacific, 7 miles, but far enough inland to not have a lot of overcast weather as in beach schools (though many grow to love cooler beach weather). Most who want night-life go off campus - beautiful winding Sunset Boulevard dips to meet UCLA and goes eastward to Hollywood/Strip, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>UCSC - redwoods w/ ocean just a few blocks away. A little too secluded; main part of Santa Cruz is small sleepy sea-side town. Distinctive self-contained party types.</p></li>
<li><p>UCI - I’d rate this school’s location here, though it is located in the cookie-cutter neighborhood of Irvine (master-planned, etc). Near Newport Beach, but students are somewhat like SD students, less party-type.</p></li>
<li><p>UCB - I’m speaking mainly of location, not beauty of campus. Berkeley has beautiful hillside homes, but most of the city flattens out to the Bay, with flat-lands, bad areas, etc. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>7 UCM - Im rating this school here, Im guessing because of its possible hiking potential.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>UCD - Near Sacamento, rural, etc.</p></li>
<li><p>UCR - Inland; I dont mean to demean. Feel free to upgrade…</p></li>
</ol>
<p>@RML
Berkeley rejects? USC is not UCLA (in a good way). Their admissions standards are clearly as difficult if not more so than that of Berkeley. </p>
<p>Also, I’d consider USC a Berkeley peer. If Cal can try and pretend Stanford is a legitimate peer when its cross admit rate between the schools is roughly 5%, USC is definitely a Berkeley peer. It’s not full of Cal rejects.</p>
<p>I’d also like to point out that of the schools you listed along with Berkeley (Claremont Colleges, Stanford, Caltech), none of those are legitimate Berkeley peers at the undergraduate level. They are all marked better.</p>
<p>^ what are you talking about? How is USC’s admissions standards more difficult than Berkeley’s? </p>
<p>First of all, you can’t get into Berkeley when you’re not in the top 10% of your HS class, unless, perhaps your SAT scores are really, really high. 99% of Berkeley’s admits were in the top 10% of their graduating class, something that USC only wish to have. And, Berkeley has higher average SATs, as well as, higher average HS GPA than USC’s. So, what are you talking about? </p>
<p>I also don’t believe that USC is Berkeley’s peers. Of course not. UCLA, yes. But USC? I don’t think so.</p>
<p>Berkeley’s yield rate is over 41%, almost similar to or slightly higher than UCLA’s. USC’s yield rate is only 34%. The vast majority of those who didn’t enroll in Berkeley went to HYPSM. Stanford alone steals about 25% Berkeley admits. Then you have HYPM, Caltech, the rest of the Ivies and other elite privates such as Northwestern, Chicago, JHU and Georgetown, which to my estimate would register another 15% or so, as these are the real peer schools of Berkeley. The remaining cross-admits have probably enrolled in other UCs, the bulk of them should be in UCLA, as it is the 2nd most respected UC. I don’t have stats on this assumption, except that Berkeley has a yield rate of 41% and 26% of the cross-admits between Berkeley and Stanford went to Stanford, but I can hardly believe that USC steals many Berkeley admits. Most Berkeley folks I know consider USC as a “fall back” school, not on equal footing with Berkeley.</p>
<p><a href=“http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp[/url]”>http://students.berkeley.edu/admissions/freshmen.asp</a>
<a href=“http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/private/1011/FreshmanProfile2010.pdf[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/private/1011/FreshmanProfile2010.pdf</a></p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If that is true (which I doubt, because Caltech and the Claremont colleges appeal to a different applicant than USC), then the same must be true for UCLA, as it is virtually USC’s twin.</p>
<p>You’re taking in too much of teh self-hype in which USC engages.</p>
<p>If one undos the superscoring that USC does to mark up SATs, I would think USC would still have higher scores than UCB and UCLA.</p>
<p>But they cherry-pick high and decently high scores in sacrificing gpa/class rank often times from among the top elite private hss. Remember: UCLA and UCB are public schools and are trying to maintain access to the very poor along with the rich, the latter of whom have marked advantages, esp, wrt the SAT and AP, the former, who have little help in attaining high scores.</p>
<p>USC is willing to take middling rank private school kids with good scores; therefore many of the admits to USC would not be admissible to UCB and UCLA because both of these schools would rather be restictive to class rank at both bad as well as good high schools to keep access available to all, but not as far as Texas-Austin and their 10% rule. (There are plenty of cross-admits to UCB and UCLA, many of whom choose the latter, and the choices among both are pretty much even.)</p>
<p>If you hate both schools for trying to keep things accessible to all, then transfer to USC. Youre so dour and down, try to enjoy the things at UCLA and the surrounding area.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I can’t defend UCLA as I am not well-versed about the school, but I know it is a highly respected school or more so than USC is, nonetheless. </p>
<p>It is very possible that Caltech has many cross-admits with Viterbi, as well as, Letters, Arts & Sciences. It is also very possible that USC College of Letters, Arts & Sciences has many cross admits with Pomona and Scripps; Viterbi with Mudd; and Marshall and Leventhal with McKenna and Pomona. And when one is admitted to, say Viterbi and Caltech, I doubt if Viterbi can hold on its own against Caltech in the cross-admit battles. I also doubt if USC can compete with Pomona vigorously.</p>
<p>
We’re discussing OOS students, so use Berkeley’s OOS yield – 28%. At least it is a large step up from its abysmal 19% last year.</p>
<p>
Berkeley enrolls 1 transfer for every 2 freshmen. 90.7% of such transfers come from California community colleges. </p>
<p>Are you suggesting that all of those students were in the top 10% of their classes?</p>
<p>
Precisely. At Berkeley, for example, engineers make up 25% of OOS students. Natural resources and physical sciences make up another 25%. The remaining 50% are scattered among biology, architecture, and related fields.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You were not following the discussion. I pointed that out when sentimentGX4 said that Berkeley is a peer school of USC. That is something I cannot agree with given there is lack of data to support such claim. And, in such discussion, or if you really want to prove that they are peers, you don’t separate OOS and IS. </p>
<p>BTW, it’s 34.74% OOS yield rate, not 28% or 19%.</p>
<p>
What is the relevance of that to the freshmen admission to both schools? </p>
<p>Now, granted 1/3 of Berkeley’s freshmen are from CC, would you study in CC first before going to Berkeley? </p>
<p>
I would venture that they are the top of the top students at their respective community college.</p>