<p>^^ This was my daughter’s logic as well. She was/is a quirky kid who was really into alternative music and who did not drink. She gravitated towards large urban universities at which she felt she could find her “people” and where she felt there were several alternatives to partying.</p>
<p>I think the drinking culture is highly inflated. After all, none of our CC kids indulge to excess! ;
</p>
<p>I think it’s less about the party culture and more about party pressure. Yes, Reed has a reputation but when D visited, what she liked was the strong focus on respecting people’s personal choices. The students she spoke with didn’t feel pressured nor left out if they didn’t smoke pot. She got the exact opposite feel from Claremont McKenna. D couldn’t find a student who didn’t proudly wave the “study hard, play hard” flag. Even in her interview, D felt very uncomfortable with the interviewer and the young woman’s focus on D’s party habits (and the open disdain she seemed to have for D’s rather tame ideas of fun.) CMC is a fantastic school and I’m sure it was dumb luck that D got the spokespeople she did. However, D felt that if the school hired these particular students to be their representatives, then she just couldn’t see herself applying. As it turns out, D is in an LAC with plenty of partying but there are lots of social options and people don’t seem to care much as to what a person chooses to do.</p>
<p>turtletime, thanks for your post. I think that’s exactly it. I’ve looked at CMC for my son over and over again because there’s so much to like about it, but I do get the same impression from talking with students there.</p>
<p>I’ve never looked at Reed, but I love the idea of respecting people’s choices. </p>
<p>My son had quite a few overnight visits as a recruited athlete. He saw runners drinking at only one of the schools, which happened to be the one that offered him a full-tuition scholarship. I really liked the school, but he couldn’t stand the thought of being on a team which had a lot of drinkers on it.</p>
<p>When I was a dance major ages ago, it always amazed me to see dancers puffing away on cigarettes before they would perform. It didn’t make sense to me, but I guess there are a lot of people who can smoke and drink heavily and still be amazing athletes and performers.</p>
<p>Ah, that illusory best fit syndrome! First impressions rarely fail the visiting student and parents. There are so many schools with different vibes and academic offerings that it does not make much sense for a student to reinvent himself or hope the school will change. A student who is looking for an ultra liberal environment with a booming arts scene will find CMC a weird place. Yet, the student might do very well at CMC for a set of different reasons. </p>
<p>The main issue is not so much one of the existence of a “drinking” culture or a “work hard and play even harder” atmoshere as it is one of peer pressure to … adapt. There is little need to pressure students who are willing participants. The school has developed a (well-deserved) reputation to attract and accept students who fit certain attributes to a tee. Anyone looking at CMC will know what those are. As unatttractive as it sounds, the interviewers did what is expected from them, and that is being … honest. And perhaps brutally honest! </p>
<p>A school such as CMC has opted to control activities that are present at ANY school, short of the ultra religious or commuter schools. Or better stated, the school has tried to make lemonade with lemons, and the pendulum has switched from too loose to too controlling. There have been recent changes on the “party” front and not all of them have been popular with students. Who is right or wrong is a matter to be debated for a long time. As everywhere, there have been incidents that should not take place in a school. But so are misleadind reports by outsiders. </p>
<p>Is there a bottom line? Yes, and that is that the school is not for everyone, and that it is best to look somewhere else when the differences of opinions are too vast. Why waste an application, and especially when the odds of admissions are very low in the first place?</p>
<p>Fwiw, I happen to think that too many cling to romantic or naive views as to what happens on a campus from Thursday to Monday. </p>
<p>My daughter, who is a non drinker and sort of nerdy, was really turned off by Dartmouth and its culture. Ended up at Yale. Now of course there is a lot of drinking and partying going on there, but there is also a wider range of students and interests to choose from. I would steer her toward schools where she will have options.</p>
<p>Re smoking. My Reedie daughter used to dance with PNB when she was young. Even the high school girls smoked. It’s one of the problems with the old Balanchine style dancers. The girls are living on cigarettes & purging to stay thin.
I’d hope other style of dance are more health conscious.</p>
<p>Am <em>I</em> scared off by the drinking culture at some schools, and do I communicate that to families? Yes. I still encourage them to visit when it’s otherwise a good fit. Dartmouth is a good example of a school with a ton of great things to offer and a scary (IMHO) drinking culture. My last admit there was torn between D and Columbia, and chose Columbia in large part for that reason.</p>
<p>Then again, two of my devoutly abstinent nieces attended Colgate.
Similar rep to Dartmouth.</p>
<p>Colgate’s fraternity and sorority percentage is much lower than Dartmouth’s fraternity and sorority percentage.</p>
<p>It really wasn’t the Greeks they were concerned with.
<a href=“Colgate marks 10th anniversary of tragic crash | Colgate University”>http://news.colgate.edu/2010/11/colgate-marks-10th-anniversary.html/</a></p>
<p>Why are parents so afraid of allowing their children to be exposed to Greek life? They are supposedly ready for the rigors of college level study, choosing a major and occupying their free time outside their academic life as they prefer. </p>
<p>Of course if they are convinced themselves that they will somehow be coerced or possibly slip into foolish behaviors without consequences that they can appreciate, well, maybe they should take a gap year and find themselves. </p>
<p>I understand many parents don’t trust their children even though their parents allowed them to make these very same choices in the 1970s and 1980s. What’s different? Is it the cost of college today and the fear that your offspring will waste your money and that of the college which has extended financial help (if applicable)? Beats me. And the irony is that Greek life at the colleges I know about are far better regulated and equipped to deal with problems than they were even 10 years ago.</p>
<p>I shudder to think we are so insecure that our children don’t exercise enough judgement to bypass whatever temptations they might encounter. If that were really a problem, and the gap year idea is not taken up, why not also interfere with any notion of attending an urban college, one with harsh winters or one with a religious leaning or tradition (assuming it’s not yours)?</p>
<p>Believe it or not, Greek organizations offer activities and camaraderie that are unique to the campuses where they thrive and also differ from house to house. So when students- as individuals or as a cohort- make the choice to engage in an activity, join or simply partake occasionally they can derive tangible benefits. Or not, as the case may be. After all, it’s up to them. They are the ones attending.</p>
<p>@markham I, DH and DD are Greek and we were very happy with our experience. I think many parents are concerned because the partying culture of teens and young adults seems meaner and more extreme. I blame Jacka$$, Tosh, Jersey Shore, YouTube, etc.</p>
<p>Kids are exposed to inane and dangerous things that most would never dream of doing by themselves. Alcohol enemas anyone? Once judgement blurs after a few drinks, all bets are off. Add peer pressure and then stir in instant photos and video. It’s not a good mix.</p>
<p>Perhaps the posters who are more familiar with Greek organizations would like to specifically list those Greeks on various campuses which are substance-free and might appeal to students who share the concerns of the OP. </p>
<p>I am a member of a sorority and very active in my graduate chapter to this day. I have nothing against Greek life at all and hope that my D follows in my footsteps eventually at Yale. However, schools where this life is overarching and the atmosphere is one of party, party, party with little else to do, that is where I think some kids and parents have problems.</p>
<p>I think one thing parents and students should be aware of is that colleges vary quite a lot in terms of drinking, drugs and party culture, despite the fact that you will be told that people drink everywhere–but you will be told this most often at places where students drink a lot. You have to do your homework carefully if this is something that matters to you.</p>
<p>I know I was never opposed to my offspring being exposed to Greek life. They simply didn’t want it (nor did I in my day, so it might be genetic). Therefore, it was helpful if they went to a school where they didn’t feel in the minority if they didn’t join. They were merely looking for their fit.</p>
<p>Several turned off by Dartmouth’s drinking culture (in part because it morphs into abuse and rape culture). 1-2 Denison, due to alcohol poisonings and hospitalizations in the past couple years (the university’s cracked down but info is fresh enough it discouraged). Drury (in part because students were very vocal about the “crackdown”, limited as it was.) 1 Wesleyan. Probably others I’m not aware of.
The issue can be discussed along those lines:
1° is there something else to do that’s organized by the school and that other students participate in? 2° If you’re participating, are you considered somewhat poorly/a wuss/ridiculous (etc)? 3° does it lead to sexual assault/ ? 4° Has there been more than one serious accident/2000 students or so*? 5° What have the administration and the student organizations done to remedy the problem?</p>
<ul>
<li>you can change the numbers but that allows to control for the various sizes of student bodies.</li>
</ul>