Arriving at a reasonable list of schools

Parents Forum
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<p>First, let me say I was very happy to find this site last week and have learned a great deal from reading the posts. My son is entering his Senior year and we are at the point of needing to come up with a reasonable list of schools to apply to.</p>

<p>Some background:</p>

<li>He is interested in History/Political science and perhaps becoming a HS teacher.</li>
<li>He has a 3.66 weighted GPA which should rank him, at a school that “doesn’t rank” but does provide information on grading patterns<g>, just in the top 20% of a class of about 230 at a very strong suburban HS. In general, the girls do much better than the boys at his school so probably 2/3 or more of those above him are girls.</g></li>
<li>He has received better grades each year. His school does not offer weighted/honors courses to Freshman or Sophomores except in Math and Science which he didn’t take as he is not particulary strong in those areas.</li>
<li>The first weighted courses he took were in his Junior year - AP English Lang., AP US History, and Honors Chemistry with good results in English and History and a not very exciting effort in Chemistry.</li>
<li>His senior year he is back to a non Honors science course but is taking AP English Lit, AP US Gov (a distance learning course), and an Honors History course. He has only reached Spanish 4 and pre-Calc in math but is taking 6 full academic courses this term instead of the usual 5.</li>
<li>He started slowly in his EC’s, we moved to the town at the start of his HS career, but is captain of the debate team (both Junior and Senior year) with some good results in competition, has been in several plays, has performed on the guitar at school various events, received two Social Science/History awards, and is the student rep on the Board of Ed.</li>
<li>His test scores are:
SAT I - 2020
Reading 720
Math 610
Writing 690
SAT II
Literature 630<br>
Math I 590<br>
AP English 4
AP History 5</li>
</ol>

<p>So far his proposed list is:</p>

<p>Vassar - 1st Round ED
Bates - 2nd Round ED (legacy)
Bard - EA
Chicago - EA (he loved it but I think his chances are really really low)</p>

<p>Regular Decision possiblities will be some of:</p>

<p>Drew
Franklin and Marshall (legacy)
Oberlin
Kenyon
American University
Connecticut College
Hampshire
Skidmore</p>

<p>I am concerned we may be shooting too high.</p>

<p>Thanks for your thoughts.</p>

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<p>Welcome to CC! Your thoughtful inaugural post implies that you've been doing some lurking.</p>

<p>The college list contains all the essential ingredients--some reaches, some matches, and some safeties. I don't think your S is shooting as high, as long as he is as enamored with his safeties as he is with his reaches (as mentioned in other CC posts). Another question: does he love Chicago more than he loves Vassar, and if so, consider what might happen if he were to be accepted at Vassar ED as well as at Chicago EA? ED is binding whereas EA is not.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>Looks like a very good list with plenty of balance. My D had similar stats and looked at many of the same schools. If Bard is a "yes" and he's happy with bard you will be able to pare down the RD list considerably.</p>

<p>Bard has a program in November-- an accellerated EA where you visit the campus and get an immediate decision. I suggest he look into doing that.</p>

<p>Oberlin & Hampshire provide a pretty different atmosphere than, say, Kenyon & Connecticut College. The unifying theme of the list seems to be "strong humanities" but you may want to narrow down a bit more based on campus culture, fit, and feel.</p>

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<p>Hi and Welcome!</p>

<p>What kind of schools is your son favoring? Has he visisted?</p>

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<p>Thanks for all your replies. In response to the three posts above</p>

<ol>
<li><p>He likes Vassar better and, I think, has a better chance to get in there as well as probably being a better fit. Chicago is a very unique place and he thinks it might be a bit too intense for hiim. Naturally, if they accepted him and Vassar didn't he would carefully consider the opportunity...."can it really be that hard?...." I think he could do it if he could get in as his intellectual curiosity has been growing throughout his HS experience.</p></li>
<li><p>He likes what he has seen at Bard so far but is concerned it may be a bit too far "out there" for him...despite his interest in slightly/mostly non-traditional types of places. A guy he knows is there now and had the same concerns going in but really loves it now (sound familiar<g>). We will definitely look into the accelerated EA.</g></p></li>
</ol>

<p>He has not seen Hampshire, Kenyon, Conn College, Skidmore, AU, or Bates yet. I kind of think that Kenyon, Skidmore, Conn College and AU may turn him off a bit, like Fairfield and F&M did. AU is on the list due to Washington DC only and is a bit bigger than the others so I suspect may drop off. Bates is on due to Debate with theater and the possible legacy hook.</p>

<ol>
<li>He has seen Wesleyan (way out of reach but close to home. he did like it very much.), Fairfield U. (hated it), F&M (3 times and tells me my alma mater is "fine...". He did like the theater.), Drew (liked the campus but is concerned it is too small and Kean has left.), Rutgers (too big), Princeton (wow...out of reach), Drexel (drive by...no), Penn (drive by...no), Chicago (loved it...go figure...), Northwestern (drive by...too big), Oberlin (liked it but we ran out of time getting to Kenyon. If we go back to Oberlin we will get there.), Case Western (drive by...no), Bard (one self tour...liked it), Vassar (two visits...really loved it both times). Whew.... </li>
</ol>

<p>In short, mostly smaller LAC's without Frats. Stronger social sciences, debate (if possible), and the ability to do theater without being a major.</p>

<p>Thanks again for your responses. I have indeed been Lurking for a week or so! What I learned so far from "touring" is that it is very hard to do more than one school per day and some places don't rate a full visit even after you get there. I had been warned about this but I guess you have to see it to believe it. I would like to fine another "safety/very close match" that he likes. Hopefully the last visits will nail that down.</p>

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<p>How's money look? Can you afford full tuition at these schools or is financial aid part of the picture?</p>

<p>Skidmore, Kenyon, Oberlin, and Vassar strike me as sort of an odd mix (with Kenyon being the "odd man out"). But, those are the only ones I've been to. Also, without frats does not describe Kenyon. (You might think about Denison - close geographically to Kenyon, but less frat oriented and slightly more of safety for him.)</p>

<p>I would be careful with eliminating schools based on drive by. Unless he is REALLY adament, I found it is very hard to assess schools simply by looking at the campus...</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>My thoughts: His grades and class rank seem a little on the low side for schools like Vassar, Conn College and Oberlin. If he had an UNweighted GPA of 3.66, that would be a different story, but a WEIGHTed GPA of 3.66 is on the low side for these schools. His test scores and class rank are also on the low side for these schools. At Vassar, for example, 68% of accepted students are in the top 10% and the average GPA is 3.8. Test scores 25-75% are 660-740 verbal, 650-720 math, combined 1310-1460 combined. While there is some boost by applying ED, Vassar still only accepts 45% of ED applicants so I would not count on too much of a boost there. Being male may be a slight tip factor.</p>

<p>Since he seems to like LACs, you might want to take a look at Goucher in Maryland. They have a very strong history department, with the opportunity to cross-register for classes at Johns Hopkins, Loyola, Towson and other schools in the Balitmore area. It would be a solid match if he applied regular, a safety with strong possibility of merit money if he applied non-binding EA.</p>

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<p>We have the money situation more or less covered...unless gas prices really go up<g>. Naturally if a school would like to pay for him to attend....there would be money from his college fund to pay for graduate school or a nice house down payment. Not counting on this though...maybe we should have tried pee-wee football years ago....</g></p>

<p>Kenyon does seem to have some contradictory elements. I will check out Denison. I think Skidmore may fall out of the group as well.</p>

<p>We haven't eliminated a serious choice on a "drive by" yet so I think we are ok so far on that. I think that is very hard to get by the stereotypes that schools have to what it is really like to go there. Naturally most kids first choice turns out to be the one they go to for a few months so I think everything will work out fine in the end.</p>

<p>Mark</p>

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<p>Personally, I liked Skidmore when we visited. I thought it seemed like a lot of kids were very engaged in arts and theater activities there - which seemed like a nice counterbalance to just hanging out and drinking for extracurricular fun. I also loved its location and the town. It got cut from my son's pile due to high tuition/no merit aid.</p>

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<p>I assume you are saying Kenyon is the "odd man out" because it has fraternities. Otherwise, I think it has many similarities with the other schools as far as being strong in the arts and theatre. From what I understand, many students at Kenyon are involved with theatre who are majoring in other subjects, so it is probably worthwhile for your son to investigate it further.</p>

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<p>I agree with everything Carolyn posted. Given the stats and interests....I'd stick with Bard, Bates, Conn College, Kenyon, Skidmore, and American and consider looking into Sarah Lawrence, Muhlenberg, and Bennington. Vassar would be a far reach I think but it is ok to have those too. UChicago really is as well and does not seem to be as good of a fit anyway. The schools mentioned have theater for nonmajors. It is important to really look at the stats of admitted students. Like Carolyn said, you really need to go by the unweighted GPA here. His GPA of 3.66 would have been all right if unweighted but it is weighted and given the SAT and SAT2 scores, you have to go by all the stats, and the class rank. I think some of the schools on your list and in my post are more in the ballpark than a Vassar, UChicago, or an Oberlin. Really examine the stats of the admitted students to give you some idea.
Susan</p>

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<p>Yes, I fear his numbers are on the low side for Vassar, Conn College, and Oberlin etc.. I will check out Goucher. I seem to remember the students there being somewhat conservative in my day but need to check that.</p>

<p>Vassar's Overall Rate is 29% but 54% for ED and they accept 38% ED. What is interesting is that the Male rate is 37% and the Female rate is only 25%. It would be interesting to know what the Male/Female GPA and Scores break out is.</p>

<p>Two questions I have about the sort of stats you mention are whether colleges see the same male/female disparities we see at our HS. Also, there is always a footnote that says "of applicants coming from schools that rank" and technically his HS does not rank. Do you think that colleges are maninpulating the GPA/Rank numbers a bit? In any case, I agree that his is below the median at a number of the schools on this list. It may be that Oberlin, Kenyon, and Conn. College drop off in favor Skidmore, Hampshire and perhaps Sarah Lawrence.</p>

<p>Regarding Skidmore, I think it is a beautiful campus and town but historically it has not been as serious academically as some other places on the list, though this may be an old stereotype. Unfortunately, the places are are really interesting overall are all a bit of a stretch. It is interesting to see how much more polished the on campus presentations and tours are at schools with higher admissions standards. The difference between the in person view and the web/literature view must be like the difference between the application essay, which can be edited by parents and teachers, and the writing done on the various standardized tests! We have seen some awesome and some other purely scripted tour guides. Clearly Chicago, Wesleyan, Vassar, and Oberlin had the best "pitches" with Chicago's having the most interaction between the current students, admissions officer, and prospective students/parents. We may tour Yale to see if that holds for another top school. Have other people seen this in looking at schools with widely different admissions standards?</p>

<p>I just remind myself, that kids find their own level wherever they go it is not good to get too hyper about this. Most schools are more than qualified to challenge undergraduates.</p>

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<p>I happen to think that Skidmore is an excellent option for your son. I hope he looks into it fully. I know some excellent students who go there. Definitely has theater opportunities.</p>

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<p>Thanks soozievt. My response to the previous posts crossed with yours. I think I am in sync with both your views on Vassar and Chicago, of course is way off the scale for him. I don't yet know the grade distribution for his class so his GPA may look better. I don't think that the average GPA means that much as you really can't know what the grade inflation is at a particular school. At least that is what I tell my kids when they compare theirs to mine....no +, -, or weights in my day....and we had gym all four years....walking through the snow etc. etc.</p>

<p>MotherOfTwo, I think Kenyon looks awesome. Whether he applies there really depends on whether we can schedule a trip back out to see Oberlin and Kenyon together. The logistics of all this travel is going to cut down the list a bit anyway. He still has to go to school and I still have to work!</p>

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<p>I am glad that Kenyon and Skidmore rate highly here. Does anyone know much about Hampshire?</p>

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<p>CT, According to the new US News & World reports premium edition, which has last years stats, the ED admit rate at Vassar last year was 47%, not 52%. Small difference, but want to make sure you have the latest numbers.</p>

<p>Being male is a slight tipping point for Vassar, as well as several of the other schools on your list, but not as much as at some other schools. Good luck to your son!</p>

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<p>You mentioned "no frats" but isn't Franklin and Marshall heavily frat oriented? I do understand F&M is a legacy, which is an important boost. We also are applying to one legacy school that is a great academic match but which is a bit more frat oriented than my son would like.</p>

<p>My son liked the Vassar campus as well. Another school that he saw and liked was Union College. It is a LAC but definitely not as selective as Vassar. The campus is small and very pretty--- not too far from Albany. The school has liberal arts and engineering, and is more frat oriented and less free spirited than Vassar but son still felt comfortable there. They have an interesting "house" system (a take-off on a collegiate system) which is non-residential for the first year. The house acts as a social and academic center. </p>

<p>Why does your son love UChicago? (My son does as well.) If it's the academic intensity, another school you might consider is URochester. While it's not Chicago, we did sense a seriousness there that your son might find attractive. It is also less selective than Vassar. (Or is it all those gargoyles? With my son, it was a little bit of both!) The key to getting into Chicago with lower scores and such is to write essays that bowl them over. It can be done, although it is a stretch.</p>

<p>Your son and my son actually sound as if they have a fair amount in common (including an identical SAT I score). Is he going to try and retake the SAT, or try the ACT? Our son found the ACT much easier, and a midwestern school does take the ACT very seriously.</p>

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<p>Whoops! Forgot to mention Hampshire. It takes a "special" kid to do well at Hampshire. It is one of these experimental schools -- no grades, just evaluations by the profs. It also gives the students tremendous independence. They can do nothing and take 6 years to graduate or they can bury themselves in their program and take the bull by the horns. The student has to be wholly self motivated. No prof will push him. He has to take the lead.</p>

<p>Sounds interesting but son decided it wasn't for him. Just a bit too wide open. But with the right student, it could be a wonderful place.</p>

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<p>Take a peak at Centre College (at least virtually). My BIL and SIL are alums - love their old school, and support it. Would be a match for your son. Allegheny College is worth a look - interesting school, thoughful kids. I think it should be ranked higher then it is. Likely admit with merit aid. </p>

<p>A young friend is now adding med school at Case - graduated from Skidmore a couple of years ago. Very good education, kids very much into school and community service.</p>

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<p>From what I know, several of the colleges on your list don't have debate teams at all. Here's what I know...</p>

<p>Bard just started a policy debate team this past year. It won an award as the best new policy debate program in the US.</p>

<p>Kenyon has a new parli program which..well...word of mouth....is ...not particularly good. It is a NPDA school though and most of the kids I know are APDA-ites, so their opinions may not be competely unbiased. </p>

<p>UChicago has a APDA team, but to really compete on it, you have to be willing to fly to one coast or the other almost every weekend. Bates has a fairly decent APDA debate team but if your kid participates, he will spend a lot of time traveling every weekend. Vassar and Wes both have pretty good parli teams. Logistics are much easier than at Bates. </p>

<p>As far as I know, none of the other schools on his list have debate teams. </p>

<p>You're pretty vague as to how good he is and don't say what kind of debate he does...which makes it hard to help you. Keep in mind that if he does want to debate, the location of the school will determine how much he has to travel.</p>