Arriving at a reasonable list of schools

Parents Forum
21

<p>Wow, thanks for all your responses. Quickly.</p>

<h2>Carolyn</h2>

<p>Thanks, I had a typo in my "stats" spreadsheet which did come mostly from USNews with some numbers from the 2006 Princeton Review "Best 361 ..." book. In a perfect world he would only apply to schools where he is at or above the various median/mean numbers. The fuzzy nature of the numbers and all the other factors that can go into this makes this more difficult than I would like. Based on all the discussion here I think I am going to try to adjust his targets a bit lower. It would be great if he had an ED choice in this group but it is important to pursue one's dreams a bit.</p>

<h2>Cami215</h2>

<p>Yes, F&M is more frat oriented that he/I would like but I enjoyed myself there as an independent and I think it is very possible to do so these days. Who knows he may, shudder...., even take to the Frat culture. It seems to me that the decline in Lancaster over the years has hurt F&M's reputation a bit. I think that situation has been stabilized and the campus looks very nice these days (better than most of the other schools on the list in fact....), probably something all of us feel seeing our old schools after the competitive upgrades required to survive the enrollment dip of the late 80- early 90's. The new President seems to be making a difference, now if his re-recognition of Frats can destroy them.....</p>

<p>I have had Union on my list for sometime as a place to visit when looking at Skidmore. I preferred Union based on their website but it didn't turn my son on and one of his friends has given it a "bad review" so....as you know this process is a bit "messy".</p>

<p>On Chicago, it could have been the "combative" and entertaining tour/info session. Interestingly, I didn't find the campus as good looking as I thought it would be by its reputation so I don't think that is it. Chicago is kind of an outlier in this whole process that I cannot fully explain, most of the others are small LAC's (except for AU with its DC location). I will explore Rochester, I had thought it was more of a technical place but will go "hit the books". </p>

<p>He does not want to take the SAT again but has said he will if I can convince him it will make a big difference. I think he might go up a bit by being 6+ older and really think there is room for improvement on the Math. You and I are thinking along the same lines as I have been pitching the ACT for a bit of a change of pace and to see if it might help at Chicago and Oberlin/Kenyon. I kind of think that his grades/rank will be the defining negative factor at the higher end schools on the list so may just encourage him to have a great first quarter/semester instead of retaking the exams.</p>

<p>Hampshire, like Bard to some extent, does look to require self-discipline. It is on the way to Bates so will rate a visit in any case! I like to think that some of these issues can be worked out by my son on his own in the spring...after he gets in some places.... I will check Centre and Allegheny.</p>

<h2>Jonri</h2>

<p>It is hard to find schools with debate programs,especially below his "reach"/"are your dreaming" level, and I was wondering about the travel involved too. Unfortunately, the league here in CT does only extemp but the team has practiced policy, parliamentary, and LD (they hope to have one LD tournament this year) so the college scene will be quite different no matter where he goes. I have spoken to top kids who have gone on to debate in college and they tell me that they enjoy the other forms more but the switch is very tough at first. This type of debate scoring has its random elements, he has had some undefeated weekends but has not made the final 2 teams yet. This means very strong but not yet awesome as a Soph/Junior we will see what his Senior year brings.</p>

<p>Thanks again to everyone for your responses. This is just the note of reality that I was looking for. I don't like the idea of collecting rejection letters and being "cannon fodder" that just fattens some school's US News stats!</p>

22

<p>It's ok to keep a far reach like Vassar on his list. It is just that you do not want many of these. I don't know how many he is applying to but if he wants to keep Vassar or Oberlin on the list, it is fine as long as he has a bunch of schools in the ballpark such as the ones in my earlier post, plus two safeties. So, go with those reaches as you never know, but pack that match list, and find safeties he would truly like. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

23

<p>There are hundreds of college debate programs. For an extemper with a less than perfect high school academic record, I'd suggest parli rather than policy just because it's MUCH less time consuming. It's still very time consuming, but not anything like policy. It's also my impression that there are more kids with no or very limited debate experience who get involved in parli than there are in policy. </p>

<p>The basic difference between NPDA and APDA, simplifying somewhat, is that NPDA is a college version of NFA. While some NPDA teams are student run, NPDA is essentially a faculty supervised organization. APDA is entirely student run. APDA is concentrated in the Northeast. NPDA is stronger in the Midwest, South and West. There's some tension between the two groups, though a couple of colleges compete in both leagues. </p>

<p>NPDA programs include Whitman, U of Puget Sound, Lewis & Clark, Willamette, Belmont, Reed, Depauw, the Claremont Colleges and, as you already know, Kenyon. This is just a partial listing. Do a google search for NPDA and you'll find many more. (But double check with the actual team. NPDA tends to keep listing schools that are no longer active .) LACs participating in APDA include Bowdoin, Brandeis, Colgate, Middlebury, in addition to Wes, Vassar, Bates, as you already know. Other APDA schools include UChicago, Clark, Providence College, George Washington, Temple, BU, Fordham, The College of Mt. Saint Vincent, Rochester Institute of Technology. (The Ivies, MIT, Duke, UVA, Johns Hopkins, Smith, Bryn Mawr-Haverford, UMaryland, Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, all belong to APDA as well, but it doesn't sound as if these are the kinds of schools he's looking at. I just mention them in case someone else who is interested in debate reads this.) I THINK but am not certain, that Lehigh recently started a parli team; a regular poster here has a son who is one of the founders. </p>

<p>These are NOT complete lists.</p>

24

<p>As far as "polished" tour guides/presentations I think to some extent it can be the luck of the draw. Randomly talking with students on campus can give you a more thorough view, of course. We had our worst tour guide of them all at Oberlin, and an average one at Vassar. Our most mature and well-spoken tour guides were at Denison, Case Western, and probably SUNY Geneseo. Kenyon and Skidmore were OK. I just list those to point out that I didn't see a very good pattern - but we did not tour a million schools either (maybe 10).</p>

25

<p>My D loved Vassar so I will tell you the schools we visited & researched and their degree of variation from Vassar, picking those of similar or less selectivity:</p>

<p>*Skidmore- very similar in friendliness, nicer town, beautiful campus though contemporary architecture instead of traditional, similar artsy/humanities comfort zone, slightly less 'intense' feeling from students (not that Vassar was a pressure cooker, but Skidmore seemed a bit less type A.) D loved Skidmore and felt very comfortable there.</p>

<p>*Conn College- lovely, stately campus; less access to town and no better a town than Poughkeepsie; slightly preppier, also very friendly, a little less a feeling of abundant activities & diversity (not sure if this is really true or a fluke of her host student.) </p>

<p>Hampshire - very alternative, more thrift-store/dyed hair/pierced kids, not walking distance to town area (though 5 colleges by minibus); pretty green campus with modern architecture-- slightly tatty; much smaller-- intimate and maybe a bit of a fishbowl. (D, who is bohemian in spirit but athletic & fashiony, hated it.)</p>

<p>*Kenyon: more preppy & fratty. Extremely pretty campus. More isolated. Very friendly kids. Decent little nearby town. Seems increasingly difficult on admissions-- probably quite close to Vassar in academic standards.</p>

<p>*Trinity: Beautiful campus, friendly kids, more preppy & fratty; very user-friendly as school (staff wise); adjacent to shabby area of Hartford but very interconnected with Hartford for internships, study, etc. </p>

<p>Consider also:</p>

<p>Union-- I second Union; a great friend who attended Vassar suggested it to us but we could not fit in visit. He said it had a similar vibe to Vassar.</p>

<p>Allegheny-- we also liked this school and D got merit aid (as I said before similar stats, but my D was recruited for sports which may play into merit aid.) As she was admitted to a reachier school, we did not visit but we liked what we experienced. They do have a fast track EA program as well.</p>

<p>Lawrence U -- in Wisconsin, or it would be much more selective. Nice balanced prep/art environment because it (like Oberlin) has a conservatory. Medium sized town. Pretty campus. Nice people. Probably more middle of the road/conventional than Vassar but not entirely dissimilar.</p>

<p>Beloit College-- More towards hippie, "crunchy" than Vassar but friendly, intimate, small and nurturing school. D got merit aid EA here too. Also in Wisc.</p>

<p>Look at Muhlenberg, Hamilton & St Lawrence (more snowy/remote), Denison (more of party sch than Vassar,) Clark, Wheaton, Emerson, Goucher, Earlham. Not sure about Gettysburg, Lafayette but they may be worth a look too. In West (where Ct is more geographically desireable) you could look at LACs like Occidental, Lewis & Clark, Puget Sound. </p>

<p>Good Luck.</p>

26

<p>I also support the recommendation of Goucher--especially for a male, admissions would easier--we visited--an attractive campus, definitely not conservative with fairly artsy orientation but near enough to DC to be interesting for a poli sci major--also options at JHU for a wider range of students. I second the advice on Earlham too. Emerson seems less appropriate --more urban, more pre-professional than pure LAC.</p>

27

<p>True, I had included Emerson as a "humanities" place.</p>

28

<p>Thanks again for the responses. I am going to ask him to consider/reconsider Colgate (for APDA debate), Union, Skidmore, and Goucher but will leave off the other PA schools in deference to F&M. </p>

<p>Logistics will play a part as we can't visit every place! The upper NY State schools were supposed to be on the return leg of a trip we did to Chicago this summer but we got tired and returned through NJ instead. It may be time to break out the routing software again.</p>

<p>Emerson is very nice and quite popular with the Theater crowd at his school but is very restricted in what majors it offers so didn't make his list originally.</p>

<p>jonri,</p>

<p>Thanks for the information on APDA vs. NPDA and parli vs. Policy. Unfortunately, as you note many of the debate programs are at schools that are out of his reach. All of the others you mention did rate a quick online survey but didn't generate enough interest for a visit...yet<g>....</g></p>

29

<p>I don't know if you have a geographic preference but there are several LACs in Upstate New York, besides Skidmore. Union is in Schenectady and has a good reputation. There are others..smaller Lacs that are located closer to the finger lakes.</p>

30

<p>A good smaller LAC in NY is Ithaca College.</p>

31

<p>From the description of your son, I second the idea to focus more on colleges such as Vassar, Conn Coll, Skidmore and Oberlin which have more in common than, say, a Kenyon, Denison, Union and (certainly)F&M.</p>

32

<p>Thanks. Would I be correct to say that these two groups look correct?</p>

<p>I
Vassar
Conn College
Bard
Oberlin
Skidmore
Hampshire
Bates</p>

<p>II.
Union
Kenyon
F&M (what has happend to my alma mater over the years<g>)
Hobart
Hamilton
Colgate</g></p>

<p>Don't know where to put Ithaca
BTW, is it appropriate to not take the SAT's a second time if the scores look fine or is it better to take it on the assumption that an older child will do somewhat better?</p>

<p>Thanks again for all your great responses.</p>

33

<p>I'd classify them like this:</p>

<p>REACH<br>
Vassar
Oberlin
Bates
Colgate
Hamilton
Kenyon</p>

<p>HIGH MATCH
Conn College
Bard
Skidmore</p>

<p>MATCH
Hampshire
Union</p>

<p>SAFETY
F&M
Hobart</p>

34

<p>Thanks. I was trying to group like "personalities" but like your list is a help too. I forgot to put Drew in the list. He likes "arty" places...is Hamilton anywhere near that category...I don't think so but don't know much about it these days.</p>

35

<p>Artsy vs. Less Artsy your lists are pretty close, but move Bates (& Conn College?) to Less Artsy.</p>

36

<p>"BTW, is it appropriate to not take the SAT's a second time if the scores look fine or is it better to take it on the assumption that an older child will do somewhat better?"</p>

<p>I kind of hate to see a kid have to repeat the wretched thing unless he is very much taken with the reachier schools on the list. If he feels he that he could do better on a retake - maybe with more math under his belt, and more practice on essays - then his score probably will improve. Since most of the schools on the list look at the combined score, if he only improves on one or two sections, he is better off. </p>

<p>Another tack is to give a shot at one of the history SAT II's. They are much more managable than the SAT.</p>

37

<p>A strong verbal kid can do well on the verbal SAT without much practice or prepping but the history SAT demands memorization of an enormous range of details--unless you've just been through a very good AP history course. If you think your child has reached the near top of his potential on the SAT, I would not have him/her retake.</p>

<p>Ithaca is fairly artsy and in the Safety range.</p>

38

<p>The young man has taken AP History, has history awards, and seems to <em>like</em> it - sometimes kids like the that absorb the details ...</p>

39

<p>Thanks to all. I had him take the other SATII's instead of History as he was taking the History AP. It probably would have been better to have him do History as he is whiz at that and got a 5 on the AP anyway. The English Lit was a last minute change as he didn't want to try Chemistry...probably a wise decision.</p>

<p>I think it would be good to come up with a better Math showing, if possible. I will show him this discussin and see if that changes his mind about having another go.</p>

40

<p>Chicago really seems out of place, not only on this list of otherwise classic small liberal arts colleges, but also for your son. He seems to be a serious student, interested in humanities and social sciences, but limited enthusiasm or natural aptitude (at least by U of C standards) for science. Chicago will not only force him to take several courses in these areas, but they will be substantial courses that few other colleges will demand of humanities or history majors. He will have to take calculus. As you note, he would be taking these courses with students who are, on average, much more adept at math and science. It could be a bad combination. It is probably the wrong place to be on the low end of the class, by high school stats, and without a great interest in the full range of required courses. The same would be true of students who are great at math and science, but who struggle with history and literature. If you go to Chicago, you had better want to take the full range of distribution courses, it could be miserable otherwise. If Chicago is really that appealing, then perhaps other small universities in urban settings should be on the list. </p>

<p>If the liberal arts colleges with limited requirements are the most appealing, then go ahead and apply to those he likes, even if they are reaches. The admissions rate at all colleges is 0% for those who do not apply. If he gets some rejections, so what? Everybody does. Just make sure the matches and safeties are covered.</p>

<p>With the Common Application, and online applying, it is not that much work to add a few colleges to the list. Essays can be reused, etc. Since you have finances covered, I assume you can afford the fees for a few extra applications. Some places even discount or waive the application fee altogether if you apply online.</p>

<p>Other than the considerable irritation, nothing to lose by taking the SAT again. Just the practice can raise the scores, and they could go up even more with some studying. Since he is in, but on the low end of, the range for many of his favorite schools, even a mild bump in his scores could help.</p>