Unpacking this a bit from our experience. You can try to negotiate, but it is unlikely to work. If your child is of unique value, e.g., a recruited athlete, musician or artist, perhaps, but in the normal course, I think not. Not familiar with the term “gap fee” but the gap usually referred to in financial aid context is probably the difference between the EFC and the amount of financial aid offered by the college. The college may very well not meet 100% of need. This means that, in addition to the EFC you start with, there will be a ‘gap’ you will have to cover, before financial aid picks up the rest.
Let me add a few thoughts on SAIC. My son has been there this year and we were quite shocked by the program despite having investigated extensively in advance. What we learned this year:
SAIC’s program seems to maintain a very, very narrow view of art. It’s a view where the artist statement is more important than the visual - where a long intellectual narrative is important but the work really isn’t. And where conceptualization trumps quality. This also emphasizes performance art and installation art. Certainly, it’s possible to make a career out of that art. But there are far more ways to create a professional within visual art.
I believe this is why they seem to have many, many students leave within the first year. Out of 12 in my son’s photography class last fall, 5 have left (and it’s only February).
They don’t have a strong track record of graduates doing phenomenal later. O’Keefe attended…for a year. Disney took a few night classes. Oldenburg took a few classes. etc… They seem to have the best track record recently in fashion - not art. It also could be that taking a few classes lets students get the skill based work that really is helpful. But as an enrolled full time student you have to participate in their “First Year Program” which is pretty universally hated and not about making great art but making art the professor wants.
They re-hire a lot of their own graduates to teach there. Most universities limit that practice because it leads to an incestuous bubble that hurts a program pretty badly - because it restricts the introduction of new ideas. (From what we can see, they do NOT want new ideas - just students who crank out the intellectual work.)
As a professional in commercial art married to a fine artist and friends with many, many more, that means their students do not graduate ready to make their way as visual art professionals.
So I’d be very careful around SAIC. IF highly intellectualized conceptual art is what you’re interested in, then SAIC could be a great fit. Same if you’d rather write about art than make it. But if you want a core education from which to launch a career in visual art, don’t do it.
@atlascentaur my daughter is interested in performance/installation art . SAIC is a great fit for her, but I understand how it would be a mistake for someone interested in commercial art to attend a conceptual art school. Your post will definitely help some prospective students in making their choice, but my daughter knows what SAIC is all about. She took a summer class there ( Advanced Projects ) and the work resulted from it brought her an American Vision nomination ( fingers crossed for nationals) as well as a Gold key and Jurors Choice Portfolio at Scholastic Art and Write Competition. Not only that, but the class she took there inspired her to create the majority of her portfolio pieces which in turn brought her very generous scholarships from all the top schools, including the more classical ones like Pratt. For a conceptual kid, SAIC is a great fit.
My D is also a student at SAIC. Her experience has been that the school really pushes you creatively. It’s not a cake walk at all. The first year program pushed her to think outside of her comfort zone. IMO, many kids leave after the first year either due to financial reasons (it’s expensive) or it isn’t what they thought it would be (too much work, different work). As a parent, I am impressed with the connections my D has made with her teachers there (none of whom are SAIC alums), and I also like that the administration (financial, student life, etc) is very responsive.
Also, both SAIC and Pratt were great about awarding more merit money after Scholastic and YoungArts results were in.
It’s a matter of fit. We visited while my kid was a junior and she determined very quickly that SAIC wasn’t for her due to the conceptual nature and focus on process over result (that was her view, at any rate). BTW, that focus and philosophy was VERY apparent during our visit and during our internet research so if that didn’t come across when you researched the school, @atlascentaur, that’s very unfortunate.
Some good friends of ours sent their son there for pre-college (painting) and they LOVED the experience and how he grew from it. He is now in college doing engineering but his roommates from that program went on to other top art/design schools including RISD dual-degree. So you can learn a LOT at SAIC, even if there for a few weeks. It was a good fit for him.
It’s important to realize that there is no one way to do art. Plenty of conceptual artists from SAIC have gone on to do successful commercial work. When we were looking into the school, the one thing I heard - several times! - was “oh yeah, my (fill in the blank) went there. Crazy place. He/she did get a job doing (fill in the blank) and working for (fill in the blank) and we were very surprised by that”. So go figure.
whodeykc
Our D actually attends vcuarts so we have first hand experience. First off we are from NYC so know Brooklyn very very well. D also was accepted to Pratt and we also visited the upstate campus. She applied to VCUARTS (among other which she was also accepted to ) on the recommendations of several industry insiders. I wasn’t familiar with it at the time. After extensively researching it, and speaking with department chairs , etc I must say I was extremely impressed with its real world applications. Further being ranked as the #2 design school in the entire country behind only Yale (grad school) simply solidified it for me. But the real deal was the visits. The facilities are fantastic, the faculty was great and the students were so creative and approachable. It was one of the best tours we took. In comparing to other schools it was just such a great fit. Then Richmond itself is like great urban art city, familiar enough to be comfortable and strange enough to be real interesting, lots to do. Our only concern was freshman foundation year has to be taken before you are actually accepted to your desired major. She first has to put together a portfolio and apply to her major and its competitive, kids are turned away. This creates a lot of competitiveness for those serious students. anyway, turns out she is doing so well with great gpa , selling pieces etc that i no longer have those concerns as i trust it will work out. Strongly suggest visit VCUARTS in session and do your own research on it. good luck
also unique to VCUARTS is the art school is a crown jewel on a campus of 35,000 students. Art majors are treated really really really well, not quite as well as their basketball team (ncaa tournament bound)
but almost as good.
My post about SAIC is intended to get clarity. Unfortunately, those interested in conceptual art should know that’s a very limited field for action once out of school. Could be great to study. Hard to move from there.
Wish her well.
Interesting about what you found in your research. In our case, we researched, visited campus, attempted to talk with whomever we could, attended the admitted student session in our area, know a great many successful artists, etc…
Looking back, the things we should have paid more attention to was the very very poor quality of art in their gallery and on the walls as we toured. We should have also paid attention to the nearly entire lack of portfolios carried by students.
Our concern began when a “successful grad” came back to present at orientation. We looked up the work and it was very bad - and the grad was simply continuing to do work at colleges (artist in residence at U. Oregon).
In my work, I hire a lot of art creation. There’s far more vibrant art created, for example, in the creation of a movie like Star Wars. Or in the Drum Corps international performances which are fantastic.
It’s really sad to look, for example, at the t-shirts sold by SAIC as “student created”. They’re really bad - especially their new one with “concept” on it. Horrific colors and design. There’s better stuff created at our local high school and that’s really sad.
Guess the bottom line is this: SAIC tries to turn art into urbane academics (perhaps called “conceptual”). If you love fields that become highly academic it’s probably a good fit. But if you like the vitality of the real world, it’s kind of like becoming cloistered from the real world.
@atlascentaur - so what do you REALLY think of SAIC. Don’t hold back - please!
Let’s stick to the topic of the thread. Trashing an art school is probably not the best way to get people to read your posts.
Edit to add: my nephew (RISD grad) has done a lot of college residencies. Didn’t quite realize they are a sign of failure in the art world.
@atlascentaur when the fox can’t reach the grapes, she calls them sour!
That’s probably what the arrogant professor at SAIC might say (from other threads I read here). Or it could be that those lacking insight and succeed by playing along don’t confront the limitations of the school. Those who do can be dismissed by calling sour grapes.
Or merely it fits for a very small group of students. Tremendous if someone is in that group. But it doesn’t fit for a far larger group including many who will be highly successful artists.
My wife, most of our friends, and myself are all art professionals. My company creates national televisions advertising for Fortune top 50 companies. Here, I just call it like I see it.
For example, in the advertising business we’ve seen the professional problems that results from this type of art education for a couple of decades. Most students who are schooled in conceptual art are bad art directors. In part, they’ve spent college careers training themselves to satisfy other students and their teachers. And the instincts that do that are opposite of the skills needed in the market.
Cheers.
College residencies are one version of success. My point is that the art that works for them is one corner of the art world. There’s incredibly vibrant art world that is, in my experience far more creative, outside of those.
But here’s the thing: Art school is a limited education when it becomes as academic as it is at SAIC. Students and parents need to know more about those limitations before signing up.
That SAIC is so limited (among art schools) is a choice the school is free to make free to make. That they don’t offer a way for parents and students to know what their limitations are before attending is a problem.
Other art schools may be just the same. Many of our art and music professional friends tell similar horror stories about how bad art school was - many of those stretching back to the 1960’s. We’ve heard amazing horror stories of music and art professors - similar to those profiled in the movie Whiplash - from many highly successful musician and artist friends.
@atlascentaur with all your knowledge and experience, I am simply flabbergast that you didn’t pick up what SAIC was about before your kid enrolled.
Well, lesson learned. Bad fit. Move on.
As I said prior, we know of several kids who have attended SAIC and gone on to successful careers. For them, it was an excellent fit. Personally, I have always loved the intellectual approach to art that SAIC advocates. But then, I’m no artist. However, had I been, I probably would have chosen a school like SAIC or MICA for their academic approach. My two daughters who are now in art school, on the other hand, chose schools that are more into practical training. That’s what they needed.
There is no one right school for everyone. Let 1,000 flowers bloom!
We are flabbergasted as well…as you can imagine. But I think most art and music schools struggle to articulate what they’re about in a way that is useful. Art history was clearly set as a key demand of the school which we expected and was as expected in reality. It is the Core Practices curriculum that is so bad. Over the holiday, with a search on the department head’s name, I finally located a good description of their first year program - in a magazine interview with her.
Moving along. And sharing our experience because it is important for people to know the potential downside as well as upside of what they’re getting into.
Someone above suggested money is the reason for SAIC’s apparently high withdrawal rate first year. That seems a bit glib.The students my son knows who transferred did so because of the emphasis chosen for the first year program.
@stones3 and @JBStillFlying, thank you both for your insights on Pratt and VCU. Very informative, and reassuring to hear that your Ds are thriving- congrats!. I know less than nothing about this world but am learning fast. The conceptual v. commercial debate above is eye opening in itself, but pretty consistent with my D’s own observations on distinguishing different programs. Thankfully she is probably more discerning about these choices than I am able to be, and puts a lot of weight on other students’ work she sees during visits. Looking forward to visit VCU this spring… and still keeping fingers crossed on word from Pratt Brooklyn too. The finish line is near… Again, thanks!
Received an email from RISD today: ‘The faculty and staff on our Admissions Committee are busily reading and reviewing the materials you, and other creative makers, submitted for our application process. We’ll be able to share the outcome of our reviews around March 24th.’
Thank you everyone for the recent discussion involving SAIC. We visited at a NPD and met with students. Daughter has done a lot of research on line etc. Per her, they having working artists as professors, and some notable alum. But she is very cautious. The prospectives we met on our tour were doodling and drawing manga. They didn’t like to read. They didn’t seem to look at art within any context. Their work didn’t seem to be informed, or drawn from a larger conversation. This is a HUGE problem for her. She also thinks the art from the attending students is weaker. It would kill her to be in a class of 100 students like this. She is looking for a very conceptual program. Installation and performance art. Maybe she should rise to the top at SAIC and get what she needs, but she doesn’t want to waste time in freshman classes talking about ideas that she’s been exploring for years with students who haven’t ever pursued an intellectual thread. She wants a few skill building courses, and needs exposure to new media, since she hasn’t had that yet. However, she sees a complete focus on skill as a “Craft” exercise, not art. Initially, I thought this would be a great fit for her. Chicago! the Museum! She got accepted and she got money. But the high drop out rate and some dissuasion from the art faculty at her school will probably make it a no go for her. I think we need to visit. Attend classes. Talk to professors. We got a glossy SAIC catalog in the mail yesterday. It shows faculty and alumni work. Haven’t read it yet. This looks like stuff she wants to do. But it is not “what’s going on at SAIC in the undergrad studios”. I do think their online image is a little misleading to undergrads.
She was deferred from Cooper Union from the ED pile. We are now waiting on RISD,NYU,Pratt,CalArts and if things don’t go well, she may do a LAC or a big Uni, because she really wants to learn more about creative writing and get exposure to big ideas in all fields. She wonders if a stand alone art school, especially if she can’t find a good fit, may be detrimental to her art in the long run. This would maybe put RISD higher on the list, since there are many majors there, and they are near to Brown. Two students from her high school are freshman this year, and have been happy. Regarding poor chances of good $ with conceptual art: I think thats okay with her. Her dream is to be in some art collective living on bread and water. 
@nmmomma - Don’t consider myself experienced enough as an art school parent to weigh-in too heavily on the conceptual vs. commercial art paths that seems to be at the center of this portion of the thread re SAIC. However, I can speak from firsthand experience as the parent of a freshman at RISD. As one of the true academic art schools, considered by most to be one of the elite dedicated art schools in the country, my daughter is challenged both creatively and academically. She has ample opportunities for studio work in a vast variety of fields, all while taking classes in Philosophy, Writing, History, and Feminist Theory. The unique Winter Session 5-week intensive (splitting the classic Xmas break in two), gives additional opportunities to explore different art disciplines (great time to take a glass blowing or photography class), as well as to do some Liberal Arts work (the aforementioned Feminist Theory class). The ability to take a substantial portion of one’s liberal arts credits at Brown is icing on the cake. Other than sports (Brown is Dv1 while RISD is Dv3), RISD students can also attend meetings, lectures, and even participate in clubs at Brown. A very nice synergy and, short of a dual degree, really 2 schools for the price of 1. Good luck to your daughter!
@nmmmom “Regarding poor chances of good $ with conceptual art: I think that’s okay with her. Her dream is to be in some art collective living on bread and water.” your daughter sounds just like mine : ) As a parent I feel that I should support her dream.
My D doesn’t judge the school by the prospectives. She marches by her own beat anyway. Yes she wants to be surrounded by high quality artists, but she knows that after the first year the manga kids will drop out or transfer. She thinks that everything that she dreams of making, there will be support and instruction/materials readily available at SAIC. She spent 2 weeks at SAIC last summer in the Advanced Projects class, and she worked the hardest she ever did. The instructors provided her with not only equipment, but with advice in video, sound, felting, all for this one project and encouraged her to push her idea even further. The previous summer she had a totally different 2 weeks at another school and it was all about foundation year type skills. She felt that that while she learned a lot and evolved her technical skills, that that kind of instruction produces cookie cutter type artists.
We got the SAIC catalog in the mail as well and my D loved it because she is such a fan of Nick Cave and she hopes that one day she will intern for him and help with one of his installation pieces.
Anyway, I think it is important that each kid goes to the school that is the best fit. I just wish that nobody on this forum will bash one school or the other. We are all here to share information and ideas with the common goal to support our kids in finding the best fit. Good luck to all our kids , and I hope that we can all keep in touch about each of our kids’ school, and achievements to be of help to the future parents/ artist kids that will seek info on college confidential.
“Anyway, I think it is important that each kid goes to the school that is the best fit. I just wish that nobody on this forum will bash one school or the other. We are all here to share information and ideas with the common goal to support our kids in finding the best fit. Good luck to all our kids , and I hope that we can all keep in touch about each of our kids’ school, and achievements to be of help to the future parents/ artist kids that will seek info on college confidential.”
Ditto.
The best school for you is the one you see yourself at.
Haven’t checked SAIC’s dropout rate recently - last time I looked it was a little higher than Pratt’s and the freshman retention was a bit lower (but not much). A lot of the art schools have a high admission rate and a high transfer-out rate. They could all work on this a bit; however, I note that there are a whole lotta unconventional kids who thrive at places like these. They wouldn’t have gotten in had it been more selective, and they do well and graduate. Should art school perhaps be more selective anyway? I’d love that from a parent perspective because I wouldn’t feel that I’m the only one screening my kid for the quality of her art! Fortunately, the merit aid process DOES do some of that additional screening, which is a huge reason why we insisted our art-school kids earn merit aid before they could attend. Nothing says “we really do want you!” more than putting some money behind that offer.