The average GPA for those admitted to the UW SOB is 3.64 and only half of applicants get admitted. So they are actually closer to the cream of the crop at UW.
As to viable majors, in addition to accting and finance, actuarial science, market research/data, and real estate investments are all good options.
I cannot agree with @RustyTrowel. I worked for a large financial services firm and we hired a lot from the business schools at UW and UIUC for entry level analyst positions. Most of the kids we hired were very smart, very well taught and knowledgeable and just all around impressive. We hired our admins from the college of arts and sciences. FWIW, my business major kid took more and higher level math classes at her state flagship than most of the engineering and science majors did, and she wasnât the only one. I agree with others that you just canât paint with such a broad brush.
Accounting does get a bit of a bad rap for being âdullâ and âboringâ when it doesnât always have to be that way.
However, one thing I did find from talking with several relatives across multiple generations who worked as CPAs and from âshadowingâ an uncle as an adolescent is that one must at least be willing to tolerate dealing with tons of bureaucratic paperwork along with being prepared to be held legally responsible for signing off on documents.
In fact, the last part is one of the most critical parts of being a CPAâŠsigning off on accounting and related documents to certify they are above-board which means youâre legally responsible and will be held to account(pun intended) if they are found to be otherwise or worseâŠexcessive âcreative accountingâ beyond the accepted norms of the accounting profession were used in creating/maintaining those books.
In this respect, itâs not very different from the legal fieldâŠand a reason why many otherwise exceedingly smart folks I knew in HS/among relatives refused to pursue either field.
For business and the liberal arts, it matters a lot; for STEM, eliteness matters little.
http://lifehacker.com/going-to-an-elite-college-means-higher-salaries-only-fo-1758293489
I guess in subjects with little room for subjectivity, the employers can easily test you directly for your skillset; they donât need to turn to proxies for quality.
Finance is the most challenging area in business school, based on my observation. (Next would be accounting, and then marketing and the rest). One of my kids managed to continue to make first class in calculus and linear algebra in college, but was blown out of the water by her finance classmates, for what itâs worth.
I am broken and in tears today. Prior to reading through this thread, I had a healthy professional and intellectual self-image. I grew up lower middle class. I completed my undergraduate degree in accounting from local U. I worked for a big 4 accounting firm for a few years. I moved onto a regional firm and became a partner. After 21 years of hard work, frugality and a bit of luck, I am completely out of debt, not even a mortgage. I am now comfortably 1% in terms of income and wealth. I have a wonderful life and family that I am very proud of. I have the opportunity to work twenty more years and in position to continue to give back to my family, the people who work with me, and my community.
But it all came apart when read the words of cobrat, rustytrowel and others. I realized it was all a giant ruse, a mirage, an unfortunate deception. I am not bright. I am not intellectual. I will forever hide my head in disgrace. Clearly the marketplace and the business world are not places where you go to measure yourself and your abilities. Kids donât make the same mistakes I have. Rely instead on the sophisticated perceptions of the self-appointed authorities of all things academic and intellectual. Donât major in business if you can possibly help it. It is the last resort of the feeble-minded proletariat.
Might just be my family or that of friendsâŠespecially from HS, but among those crowds, that would be perceived as âdamning with faint praiseâ considering we have dozens of relatives and friends in finance and accounting fields.
And within their respective families, the vast majority were considered at best, middling in terms of intellectual curiosity and academic achievement in comparison with peers from the same generation. This includes friends/in-laws with relations in Canada. The few accountant relatives who were considered exceedingly bright/intellectual resorted to it as a âfallback planâ after being unable to attain their initial career aspirations they considered âhigherâ*.
- Academic Phd programs, Law, Engineering, Medicine, career as a combat-arms commissioned officer in the military(heath related), etc.
I was trying to find a way to like the post from @LOUKYDAD more than once, but it may require some mystical higher math.
S1 is a pretty smart kid. At least we think so around here. 800 math SAT, 800 math subject test, 5 on BC calc. He will graduate with an accounting degree and the 150 credits in four years. Some APâs and some elbow grease made it possible.
Numbers are his language and we are proud of him. It was entirely his choice. It appears he will earn well shortly after graduating. I canât for the life of me understand why that would need to be demonized or shortchanged in any way.
So here is an idea: if itâs not for you, stay away. If youâre advising someone else, keep an open mind.
First, let me say amen to the following:
I am broken and in tears today. Prior to reading through this thread, I had a healthy professional and intellectual self-image. I grew up lower middle class. I completed my undergraduate degree in accounting from local U. I worked for a big 4 accounting firm for a few years. I moved onto a regional firm and became a partner. After 21 years of hard work, frugality and a bit of luck, I am completely out of debt, not even a mortgage. I am now comfortably 1% in terms of income and wealth. I have a wonderful life and family that I am very proud of. I have the opportunity to work twenty more years and in position to continue to give back to my family, the people who work with me, and my community.
But it all came apart when read the words of cobrat, rustytrowel and others. I realized it was all a giant ruse, a mirage, an unfortunate deception. I am not bright. I am not intellectual. I will forever hide my head in disgrace. Clearly the marketplace and the business world are not places where you go to measure yourself and your abilities. Kids donât make the same mistakes I have. Rely instead on the sophisticated perceptions of the self-appointed authorities of all things academic and intellectual. Donât major in business if you can possibly help it. It is the last resort of the feeble-minded proletariat.
That was written by @LOUKYDAD
Secondly, no need to feel bad or apologize. What is funny about this thread is it was started by someone without a business degree who found an article he or she liked that denigrates the value of a business degree so he or she gleefully posted it and asked innocently what other people thought as a friendly warning to others not to major in business. How helpful cobrat is ! Then a few more snooty people replied about the horrors of the writing skills of the business students they know and off we go to snottyview and lookdownyournose at othersburg.
I think some folks feel the need to constantly defend their expensive degrees. But, as Loukydad pointed out the market does that quite well. You earn equal to the value you create.
And by that standard, business majors need not worry.
The best part of this thread was the business degree haters fumbling back and forth with links and anecdotes full of misinformation about how the CPA exam is administered and how CPA licenses are issued and by who CPAâs are regulated. That was pure comic gold.
I also particularly enjoyed the comedy routine about how CPAâs are legal responsible for all the legal documents they sign and that is why so many bright kids donât want major in accounting and the fanciful ranking of which business degrees were hardest. Hey, just check with about three people on this thread before you child majors in anything business related. You can also skip all that UG business stuff and go straight to a masters of accounting because, after all, cobrat knows two people who did that and if you canât take that to the bank what can you count on?
There are different levels of assurance and financial reporting services and not all organizations are even registered with the SEC so they are not even required to have annual audits or file reports with the SEC for investors and creditors. What about all those other millions of organizations that are not with registered with the SEC? Good question!
They are called private companies (and partnerships, and LLCâs and S-Corps and sole pâs) and guess what they need quarterly financial statements and payroll tax work done and sales tax returns files and income tax returns filed, etc. etc. so hopefully the LAC grad with $250,000 in debt, when they arenât looking for work and theorizing all day about nothing, can help with that. It isnât about just audits for people with accounting skills. Accountants are rarely unemployed. Hell, they were lining up to interview the business grads where I went to school and Iâve never set foot in a private school. I went to public schools from K on up. I got a great education, including soft skills, like writing, because I studied not because I went to a snooty expensive school.
I think some folks are very insecure about their degrees and the schools that over charged them to get those degrees. My message to parents and students who might consider business school is study hard. There are no guarantees. Get practical skills and relax. Learning should be fun. I regret reading this thread because it is just a lame attempt by a few folks to scare other people pointlessly.
Those colleges that require calculus for most/all majors, even those that arenât STEM, econ, or business, are foolish, quite frankly. Why do you need to learn calculus for a degree in history education, for example?
@cobrat- Students do not get into finance at top Canadian business schools so they can go into retail banking. These students are looking at IB, preferably in choice locations such as New York, London and Hong Kong. The game plan is to get admitted into a program where these IB firms (and consulting firms) come to visit and get an interview spot. What many of them do not know is that these firms only interview students earning first class honoursâŠ
So here is the math. You must be good enough to be a member of that 7% that gets into such a program. Then you must also become the top 20-25% of that 7% in almost every courseâŠace the interviews and you are on your way.
For retail banking, language facility is gold. If you are trilingual- have native or near native fluency in English, Mandarin and Cantonese, you are all set. Just take the easiest major you can find and have a good time for 3 or 4 years. The banks can teach you the rest.
I donât like engineering for its ââseasonalâ nature. Can you imagine being a petroleum engineer in Canada today? If I am forced to make a choice, it would be financial engineering. The job seems steady and well paid. According to a close relative, most of the people working in the banks donât have a clue what you are saying or doing, but upper management loves you because you either save or make them money.
Law and medicine require a different game plan. The trick is to take the easiest course of study in the easiest schools and ace the LSAT/MCAT. I offered that possibility to my kids, and they both felt insulted.
In this day and age, why would anyone want to do a doctorate, then one or more post doc placements, hoping to land a tenured position is absolutely beyond me.
Joining the armed forces in America? I wouldnât even join in Canada, thank you very much.
I think this piece expresses my sentiments better than I can. Kenneth Anderson is absolutely correct:
http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/why-more-americans-dont-major-in-the-math-and-science/
We must absolutely distinguish between flagships and top tiers, on the one hand, and less selective universities, on the other hand.
Think Youngstown State, UNebraska Omaha, Unc-G, or small colleges that admit 80-90% applicants.
As blossom said, you have business schools that donât require international business majors to know a world language let alone actually have an internship abroad, where the first math class is pre-calculus (and they offer some algebra remedial classes). At those schools, absolutely, majoring in history, philosophy, math, classics, economics (math track), French (with study abroad) is going to be more rigorous than business.
Accounting at an accredited business school is always going to be rigorous because the accreditation will ensure it is. Beware of non-accredited accounting though.
What top LACs are doing was pioneered a couple years ago : thereâs a special program these LACs now offer with Harvard Business school. Any student with a liberal arts major can take the HBS concentration.
For someone with zero knowledge of a business major, this thread is incredibly confusing. Our 12th grader, after months of uncertainty and researching and reading, has turned toward an international business major with a finance/Econ focus. She thinks with it she can combine her love of languages with her less loved but real ability in math. (She is every bit as strong in math as her engineering and physics-oriented brothers; it is just not her favorite subject. She has enjoyed the econ classes she has been taking, though. )
Is an international business degree a good path for someone who loves languages and culture who (thinks) hopes to someday work in relief services (she has been investigating Catholic Relief Services and their work in economic development through microfinance)? Alternatively, she could just immerse herself in language, literature, and culture and just blow with the wind with wherever it lands her. (Tongue in cheek? I donât even know!!)
Can I just say that being the parent of STEM-oriented kids during their sr of high school is way easier than this? She has lots of questions, and we as parents have zero answers. Engineering weâve got covered, but this is way out of our area of familiarity. She knows what she loves and is trying to discern what she sees herself doing and has an idea of it. She just isnât quite as clear as how to get from A to B. (She is currently planning on grad school, so maybe she doesnât really need as clear of a vision?? I know kids change their minds and majors, but she does have a sort of vision of what she thinks she wants to do. It just doesnât seem to have a direct path to it.)
It depends on the school. Any school with advanced classes in several languages that also requires historical and cultural knowledge of areas where the language is spoken should be okay. International business should require an advanced proficiency in a foreign language including study abroad - thatâs a good test of rigor (international business without in-depth knowledge of a region, its language, and its culture, is pretty useless). For what sheâs interested in, she could also combine her languages with economics of development ( a very important field - see Esther Duflo at MIT).
Kenneth Andersonâs statement is too strong: â*s there a serious possibility that you plan to go on to law school or b-school? If so, then the strategy is completely different â go with classes and majors that maximize GPA, period.â
I do not know about law schools, but I have served on MBA admission committees. I can tell you that it is not true. The following is from a survey on 50 largest MBA admission consulting firms about which element of MBA admission is important:
âGMAT score (21.7%)âŠessays (14.5%), admission interviews (12.1%), undergraduate GPAs (10.3%), recommendation letters (7.6%), employer prestige (7.3%), college or university attended (5.9%), and extracurricular involvement (5.7%). Far less significant, believe the consultants, are such factors as the number of years of work experience (4.7%), a candidateâs industry background (3.1%), international experience (3.0%), undergraduate major (2.4%), or fluency in other languages (1.4%).â
The survey results are more close to the realities.
I would also say that for the top 15 MBAs (the value of MBA education drops quickly after this group), they have the luxury of being picking on an applicantâs weakest link because they have so many applicants and their average acceptance rate is like 15%. If one does not graduate from a good school with quality working experience, that person had better have something else REALLY special, other than just good GPA (a large fraction of the application pool has good GPA at this tier of schools).
Go to a low-ranked college, it would be hard to score well on employer prestige and college attended, a total of 13.2%, which is higher than GPA, 10.3%.
Another reason why GPA is relatively less important for MBA admission when compared to other professional schoolsâ admission, say law or medical schools, is that most MBA applicants have yearsâ work experience. Their college GPA are not the newest piece of information on their qualities, thus its importance and weight is somewhat reduced (of course still important). In contrast, reported GMAT score is generally achieved at a time closer to the decision time, and can be a better indicator.
Some colleges believe in a greater level of well rounded general education in all subjects. Is it so much different from the fact that some colleges require history for all students and some do not?
Well, requiring history is not the same as requiring calculus. Itâd be like requiring a seminar in historiography.
However, as far as I know, outside of STEM schools no college requires calculus. Most require some quantitative class, which is often fulfilled with statistics or âmath for citizenshipâ, in the same way stem major take history âfor citizenshipâ (itâs not called like that but thatâs the purpose, often found in the âlearning outcomesâ for the course.)
Wouldnât historiography seminars be advanced level courses for history majors, while calculus is a frosh level course suitable for majors and non-majors (indeed, anyone who learned the full content of â4 years of high school mathâ)? So that would not really be analogous.
St. Johnâs College (the âgreat booksâ curriculum one) does.
https://www.sjc.edu/academic-programs/undergraduate/mathematics-tutorial
@MYOS1634 from my research, many schools require calculus.
^@itsgettingreal17: Look again at âcore curriculaâ or âgeneral educationâ or âdistribution requirementsâ : sure, calculus is required for some majors (obviously, STEM, but also economics and business), but absolutely not as a college-wide requirement. Pick the requirements for a Classics major or an anthropology major or an art history major at the schools of your choice: no calculus requirement.
Point taken for St Johnâs, but their curriculum is very specific and their teaching of calculus isnât what people associate with calculus; itâs a junior-course in a historical sequence.
The level of complexity involved in calculus is not the same as basic math for general education. History for gen ed is basic instruction to ensure college graduates have a minimal grasp of concepts important to understanding the world around them. Hence, âmath for citizenshipâ or statistics, just like the History gen eds. A difference is that math is sequential, history isnât. You can see this with APâs: you need precalculus before you take AP Calculus. No need for a specific class for APUSH or APWH, just the ability to read, write, synthesize, draw inferences, etc. A student who never took European History in high school can take European History in college, starting from scratch. The difference with high school will be the number of primary sources, the type of paper expected. Calculus assumes mastery of a series of concepts and skills. You canât âstart from scratchâ in a math sequence.
BTW, you canât consider calculus a freshman class suitable for all who took 4 years of math just like Gen Ed History is suitable to anyone who took History in HS, in part because 4 years of math covers a lot of different classes, and in part because of the sequential nature of math vs. history. Itâs like saying Spanish 5 is a first year class because you can take Spanish 4 in high school. (Spanish 5 will be considered a 2nd or 3rd year class depending on the university, even if freshmen take it.) For a sequential class, what level (frosh, sophomoreâŠ) it is depends on the studentâs place wrt the sequence.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek wrote: "For someone with zero knowledge of a business major, this thread is incredibly confusing. "
Haha, no wonder! Many similar threads are started or supported by the folks who have never studied or completed this degree, have never been in position to interview, to hire, or even to work in this field, or perhaps some of them did work, but were not successful and had to leave. I can only guess why these people choose to spend their time and energy to post. However, regardless of their reasons and motivation, this is the last source anyone should use to learn about ANY professional degree or career. If students or parents consider business, they should talk to successful professionals, hiring managers etc, who can provide a balanced and informed opinion about any potential up- or downsides, speaking from position of knowledge and experience about CURRENT business environment. Thankfully, they are well represented on this thread