As Rejections keep rolling in What do you tell your Honor student?

Applying to College Admission Stories
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I volunteered at my son’s high school and I helped the college and career guidance counselor and she gave me some good advice: When your child applies for college, he/she should apply to 2 colleges that he will probably get into and then 2 that he hopes to get into and then 1 or 2 that he may not get into but wants to try for anyway. He was accepted by 4 out of the 5.

Your question was what to tell your D who has worked so hard and done well. If it were my D, I would say “Sweetheart, you have worked so hard and while you and I may not be able to understand why these colleges are unable to see the great student you are, I know that you will go to the right college and you will do well there.” There are several colleges that have rolling admissions and she should apply there if she has not received any admissions. You may also want to see if the colleges received all the information. I know my son’s friend didn’t hear from one college and I found out on his behalf that they did not receive all of his information and so they could not accept him and it was too late by the time he realized this.

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Everyone should read this: [The</a> Ultimate Recognition | MIT Admissions](<a href=“http://mitadmissions.org/blogs/entry/the-ultimate-recognition]The”>The Ultimate Recognition | MIT Admissions)

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A few months ago when the ED2 letters came out three of my friends put their rejection on the wall of the cafeteria where all the seniors sit. After the first three rejection letters were put up people started adding their own rejection letters to the wall. Now there are at least 50 rejection letters on the wall and we see it everyday. In an odd way it is really comforting and it makes you feel like you aren’t alone with your disappointment. It made all my subsequent rejection letters so much easier because I could see all the other people going through the same thing. I really love the “rejection wall” because it shows you that almost everyone gets rejected from somewhere and no matter what happens we are still going to have bright futures.

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There are colleges that are still accepting applications. Please check college Board.

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ExieMITAlum,

Very good description of the difference between here and other countries’ systems. I would like to know if there are any follow-up on correlation between the admission criteria and the student performance in and after MIT or your husband’s alma mater?

I have asked multiple college admission officers about this and have yet to found colleges have data to back up their current processes, holistic or not. As a hiring manager for engineers over the past two decades, I myself see we became more confident in our selection system over time. However, I have to admit that we have no tracking system in place to quantitatively show you that what we do at screening applicants (a holistic approach, too) is effective or efficient. I’m very interested in the answer from someone experienced (and confident) as you.

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@ThatWasZen

I wanted to say something like this, but did not :).

Nice question. I came from a grade conscious culture, I agree that there are deficiencies in the grade conscious approach. But neither is the “holistic” approach that the american system currently has, is perfect. While the idea that one has to be holistic sounds great, it has been taken to the extreme that now you have companies that prepare you to look holistic.

Except a handful of true geniuses in the american system, the IVY’s and LAC’s are admitting padded up resumes that are catering to what the adcoms are looking for. I am not sure if all or even majority of these kids end up doing great. Where as the grade conscious “foreigner” who came here are the ones that are truly helping to run the country at this time.

This is a controversial topic, many may have objections to it, but unfortunately is true.

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No, tamtiger, it is your opinion. And if “grade-conscious foreigners” like you are doing so much to help run our country, why not apply your skills in your homeland, to make it a better place for people there? Why not work to improve higher education so talented students can stay there and still get a world-class education?

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@sally305
:). You are correct it is my opinion. And I may be wrong.

But, America is my country.

I am applying my skills to make my homeland a better place. :).

I am trying help make this ridiculous system to change, to make America the best there is in the world.

PS: I am not going to let your ignorant bigotry inflame me.

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Well, Iamtiger, if the top colleges are merely admitting padded-up resumes of non-deserving kids, why would you aspire to send your kid there anyway?

Don’t give me the nonsense of “they don’t admit the kids they should” and then die to get your kid accepted there. If the classmates are indeed just u qualified kids who know how the play the game, surely you don’t want your kid to go to school with those kids. It’s not as though you’re obligated to make your kid apply to Ivies, you know. You’re not forced to. It’s hypocritical to want to be part of the club and complain about the club members.

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Jdaz95 this was the best idea of this whole post. Solidarity. Life is never a sure thing, but only great minds can transform a bad situation into something positive.

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@Pizzagirl
I think we are all going away from the thread. This is for those kids who put their heart and soul in to working hard for 4 years to get to their dream school and who did not make it. It is not for discussing which educational system is the best.

I think you should read my post, in the thread in the context of what was being said. The post was in response to ThatWasZen’s post who was wondering what if there was a realistic correlation between the admission to the IVYs and future performance of these kids in the real world.

I did not say that IVYs are admitting kids who do not deserve to be admitted. It is a system and you have to play the system to get what you want. The system in several “foreign” countries emphasize grades. In those countries too, there are millions of deserving kids who are brilliant who do not get to go to college because they did not get the “grade” to make it.

Similarly at this time, the system here places emphasis on being “holistic”. I agree it is great to have a kid who is holistic, smart, driven and brilliant. There are 1000s of them here. But just as in any system,there are 100000s of kids who may other wise be practically great but not meet the “criteria” of being holistically, holistic.

Regarding whether I want my kids to go to IVYs, it is their choice and not my choice. I am not being hypocritical, but I am in the system and I have to work with the system, whether I like it or not. In my personal opinion, a good state college can provide as good an education as any IVY or selective LAC.

If the child is smart enough, he or she will find a way in life to succeed. It is not the school that makes the kid, but it is the kids who raise the standards of the school and “make a name” for the school. In fact I may end of saving several 10s of thousands of dollars if they choose to go to a public, state funded school.

So let us all chill, and hope we do not pass on our bigotic, bias to the future generation. Whether you like it or not, America is multi cultural, multi racial and democratic. We are all entitled to our opinions, whether you may like it or not, or agree with it or not.

By the way We Do Have A Black President, if you have noticed. And in my opinion he is performing as well as any other past president, if not better than some.

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Melted, you have a good attitude so you will succeed wherever you go! Frankly a lot of this “right” college stuff is a really deep down about social climbing and elitism. Warren Buffet graduated from the University of Nebraska. The cream will rise. Any decent university is going to have more opportunitites available than any one person can possibly take advantage of; it’s up to the student to make the most of his or her opportunities.

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YES. After all, weren’t the Ivy’s the place Senior sent Skippy Jr. to marinate for a few years and then come back to run the family business? And, if this is what made those hallowed halls what they are, then arguably changing the dynamic will change what made a place so great to begin with.

As for the rejections…DS received a few ‘whaaat???’ results. Being the pragmatists that we are…we’ve emphasized to both kiddles the business end of this system. It’s similar to the house buying panic which led to the subsequent loud popping burst of the bubble. It’s just good sense to find the hidden gem, the ones the hoards are not running to in a stampeding panic. If you want to throw in an app for one of those most desired prestigious places…go for it…you never know until you try. That said, be prepared for a rejection. And for goodness sake, don’t spend so many years of your youth ‘becoming’ what you think ‘they’ will like.

When one particularly surprising rejection came in DS mused on the fact that he hadn’t participated in the ‘right’ EC’s…if he’d participated in robotics it would have looked better. I asked whether receiving a ‘big envelope’ from this institution would have been worth giving up 4 years of an EC he absolutely LOVED! (and which really does contribute to qualities needed for his intended major). Clearly his answer was NO.

It’s too late for the current crop of saddened kids…but looking ahead…maybe we should encourage the enjoyment and experience of childhood and young adulthood. Maybe we should encourage trying things just for the heck of it…even if it doesn’t look good on a resume. And, instead of making everything from 6th grade on focus on the elite college, what if we focus on having them think about how, if they are lucky, life is a pretty long stretch, and what are the different ways people live successful, content and joyful ones.

For those that will argue … you can’t ask a person of such a young age to make such long ranging decisions or even entertain such philosophical trains of thought…well…look at what we, and they, are asking of themselves right now.

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tamtiger, I am sorry I mistook your comments to suggest you are not from the US. But with all due respect, you are the one who opened the can of worms about foreign students and the educational systems in their home countries. And there are numerous threads about whether our elite universities should admit solely on the basis of grades and test scores (try the “how did HE get in?” death spiral for a start). It also makes no sense for you or anyone to decry current admissions processes as unfair on the basis that some people are more “holistically holistic” than others. We are all equally holistic. :slight_smile:

Also, having concerns about the number of international students our universities admit and/or subsidize is not the same as being bigoted or not appreciating the rich multicultural country we live in today. Many of us believe that we need to do a better job for ALL of our own students, no matter their background, before trying to educate the world’s “best and brightest.”

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dietz: EXCELLENT post. Should be a must-read for everyone, including the parents of eighth graders who are on here asking advice about prepping their kids for Elite College Greatness.

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Hmmm.

First - to ThatWasZen - I don’t have those stats, and I suspect colleges keep them but the problem with data is that it is subject to both interpretation and sometimes lacks correlation with qualitative impacts. For instance - if you took two similarly educated students and sent them into the world, but to two different areas of the world, one might be hampered from achieving a certain goal due to unforeseeable circumstances - such as the death of a parent, or exposure to a problem that - although not glamorous and newsworthy - is important. For instance building water towers for African tribes or helping women survive the consequences of unattended birth. Does that make sense? That many contributions are “quiet.” I recently got an award from the Institute for something I actually do in the community outside of my day job. Caught me by surprise - didn’t know anyone at the Institute was keeping track. So the answer is - yes - there may be a correlation but I doubt there are reliable stats.

I will say that your questions points to why MIT interviews are mandatory except in rare cases. With so many students and such similar resumes, MIT needs to get to the heart of who that person is and find those that will come out the other end of the process fully able to contribute to society (corporation or other). Not perfect - but the Institute doesn’t want robots and clones contrary to what those prepping for the experience seem to think (based on the sameness of their pursuits). I’ve been interviewing for decades and so has my husband and I joke that we have thousands of ways to get at whether a student is a fit - and to dig for information they think might not be relevant. We did have a situation in which a student floored an interviewer - just blew him away - and we later discovered that the “interview” style didn’t match the kid’s behavior in the real world and adjusted the decision accordingly. I tend to be more “holistic” in approach and will be training. I don’t care “what” you did. I care “why” you did it. It is interesting what you can get about work ethic and motivation. But then again, my sessions per student last 90 minutes or more and they’re often prepared to talk about their “laundry list of ubiquitous accomplishments” and disheartened to find I often don’t.

I think MIT’s track record for spotting gems in the pile has been pretty good so far. I’ll admit it took me years to hone the “radar.” and not be sucked in by the charm. Some of the best students are the ones that are socially awkward and don’t have all the right answers - but have all the right passion and motivations.

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@tamtiger said:

I was tempted to let that go. But it was so flagrantly ignorant of the way the process works I felt I had to respond.

First - did you not read the read of this thread? Holistic does not ignore grades and performance, but it does look at other factors. For instance passion. Sounds stupid but I have literally probed and probed and probed students with long list of activities and APs and discovered (because I have many ways to back into a question or ask the same question more than one way) that the student did them simply to build a resume.

I’ve talked to students who wanted to go to MIT and didn’t have a single good reason for it other than MIT is one of the best schools for “geeks” (sigh) and they’re “really” smart. Didn’t really understand the culture, the coursework or the science. Some had never even looked on our website. Just assumed their stats made it a foregone conclusion we’d take them. Never occurred to them that we wouldn’t. One student admitted he’d played an instrument for a few years because he wanted to get it on his resume. My husband has encountered students who regale him with stories about their martial arts pursuits (gleaned from watching a few movies) not realizing that he’s a black belt in multiple forms. My favorite is the student attempting to impress him with stories about a particular outdoor hobby and then my husband (also an expert in that area) asked him about the equipment he used and the details of his excursions and the student was forced to admit he’d only done the activity one time with a friend, using borrowed equipment. Couldn’t even remember where they’d gone. All of the above were straight A, perfect scores, loaded with AP applicants. They just weren’t good candidates.

Also - we have both seen instances of students who gave up their whole lives in the pursuit of college only to get a recommendation from a teacher that damned them with faint praise, or worse - admitted the student was rude, or sloppy, or simply opened a book before the test and showed no real interest in the pursuit of academic enlightenment.

So here’s the deal about holistic. Because it does matter. If you have 20,000 applicants all interested in science - most having done Science Olympiad, Robotics, Scholar Bowl, etc. Then who do you choose? The truth? The student who loves show choir and puts all their extra passion into that interest. The student who got B’s because they did a full immersion year of high school abroad and their courses were taught in that foreign language at the same time they were learning it for the first time. The highly gifted student who got a lower score - not because they didn’t know the material - but because they are a slower reader and ran out of time. Or because they’re tactile and the test is not. Or they’re auditory. Or… Holistic looks at grades, scores AND music, dancing, volunteer work, what you read for pleasure, what you do with your free time, what you love and what you don’t. It looks at what motivates you when no adult is giving you a task. It considers what you’ll add to the student body other than entitlement and more pathological pursuits of the hardest courses SIMPLY so you can beat out your classmates for a job when you graduate. It looks for students who can “synthesize” instead of “regurgitate.”

I often say - the straight A students often end up working for the ones who had to fight to get C’s and B’s. One knows the value and the point of hard work and puts it into perspective. “Some” of the former know only how to move from point A to point B in a singular pursuit of a perceived but erroneous goal and spends no time savoring the journey as they go.

P.S. I can tell a coached and padded applicant from a mile away and blind folded. They’re the easiest to trip up because they can’t anticipate what I’m going to ask. And I do NOT ask the same questions to students coming from the same schools or towns. So no “sharing” on CC :slight_smile: because it won’t work.

Adcoms are more astute than you give them credit for. Not sure what sense it makes to insult the people you begged to admit you in the first place.

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Bumping @caughtintraffic’s post so it doesn’t get buried

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What about the non Ivy’s? Emory, for example, what is your opinion on their admissions process? Compared to the colleges this thread talks about, how hard is it to get in? I am a high school student.

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Wow, the amount of navel-gazing done by many of you elite is rather alarming.
I understand that CC has this obsession with good schools - but this verges on unhealthy.

The stats show that your kids mentioned in the thread are cream of the cream. It really does not matter if they end up in some prestigious U or somewhere less prestigious. They will still be the elite of the society tomorrow. I am much more worried about the vast majority of the middle class and lower class kids who either could not afford the college education or outright think education is unimportant. In this globalized world, they have no where to go but down - and I am counting on them to pay my Medicare/SS when I am old.