Asian Americans at a Disadvantage

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>Does it seem to me that every argument you could make against race based AA you can make against socio economic based AA?
If we got rid of all types of AA, including legacy based AA and “rich and stupid” AA, I’m confident that Asians would make up 70% of all top colleges in the country.
Asians, don’t despair. Many colleges across the country would love to have you. A lot of my Asian friends are going to top universities that aren’t HYPSM. Apply to the Ivies, but get some other top schools in too. They all want you, but they can’t have you.
I don’t have a problem with AA, mainly because it admits that Asians are generally “better”. Asians make up less of the applicant pool than the admitted class.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Anyways, with Asians so drastically overrepresented, I have no problem with a little “affirmative action” for all other races. Levels the playing field.</p>

<p>Compared to the educational and disciplinary environment that most Chinese children are raised under and the deeply rooted traditions/culture that they grow into, all other races are practically disadvantaged in comparison.

</p>

<p>So if Asians are doing “too well,” the solution is to punish them by granting preferences to other racial classifications in the name of “level[ing] the playing field”? Great to know.</p>

<p>

According to a Princeton study, increasing the % of Asians admitted would almost entirely eliminate URM population. If this argument is against preserving even somewhat proportional representation and diversity, remove the Chinese taglines and make a new topic.

</p>

<p>What does it matter if the “URM” population is almost entirely eliminated? Are you suggesting that there is a magic number for “URM” representation that produces wondrous educational benefits for all? That if we miss this number, which of course cannot be a quota, by one tenth of a percent, we won’t get those benefits?</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I’m terrified (edited the caps here) that I won’t get into Michigan, a school I’ve loved since freshman year. My GPA took many hits because I passed up easy A classes for APs; I’m looking at a 3.66-3.72. Despite my 2340 SAT, I’m already anxious because I know that, because of AA I may be passed up in favor of a URM with lesser stats. And it’s all because of one factor I can never control.

</p>

<p>No, you don’t have to worry. Your state passed Proposal 2 in 2006 by a sixteen point margin. Michigan is not allowed to consider racial classification in its admissions.</p>

[woeishe]

<p>

we got rid of all types of AA, including legacy based AA and “rich and stupid” AA, I’m confident that Asians would make up 70% of all top colleges in the country.

</p>

<p>There is no such thing at legacy/rich and stupid AA LOL but I think that stat is a little TOO high, maybe 40%-50%. And let’s not forget URMs make up a significantly lower portion of the applicant pool and admitted class than Whites and Asians</p>

[Tenors]

<p>fabrizio, I’m applying out of state, but if this Proposal 2 still holds up for OOS students then I’ll give you an infinite supply of e-hugs for that news.</p>

<p>But still. I’ve said this already: I’m surrounded with Asians - Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese - who work hard, yet understand how affirmative action helps URMs and hurts them. I’ve visited places across the country where I’ve had some kind of conversation with Asian students competing for a prestigious school. I should never, ever have to hear the words:</p>

<p>“I wish I was black.” </p>

<p>When talking about college admissions. And yet, across the country, I have. Of course they’re proud of their heritage, but to say something like that? That’s not right.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

So yes, I am suggesting, that by being part of a culture that ingrains characteristics to make help them “play” the game better, the so called “rules” should be changed to help those “losers” who did not have the wonderful advantage of having those characteristics ingrained into their culture.

</p>

<p>Did your parents or professors teach you this, or did you come up with it own your own? Either way, it is mind numbingly perverse. You are straight up saying that if a “group” performs “too well,” it must be punished.</p>

<p>I find that absolutely absurd, and while I hate racial and identity politics, I hope to God that you are not Asian. We can agree on one thing though; we have a fundamentally different way of viewing the world. You believe in equality of result to the point where you are outright advocating that “corrective action” must be taken against “groups” who perform well above average. I believe in equality of opportunity. I could care less if the resulting ethnic breakdown didn’t look a thing like “America.” All I care about is that there be no laws that restrict access on the basis of racial classification, and we haven’t had any of those in decades.</p>

[little_galaxie]

<p>Who says AA is “punishment” for Asian Americans, as fabrizio is implying? By the same token you’re implying that the greatest “reward” for Asian students would be getting into a top college, as opposed to a college that actually fits them. Actually, I think Affirmative Action serves as a good wake up call for many Asian students and parents (especially parents) that in the real world, grades and academics aren’t everything.</p>

<p>Also, Asian Americans are doing “too well” by standardized testing and grading metrics, maybe, but in what other fields can you honestly say that they’re doing “too well”? Every single college in the country admits that grades and test scores aren’t everything for admissions. </p>

<p>And yes, you would miss out on a LOT by having non-Asian minorities on campus.</p>

<p>P.S. I am Chinese American and I agree with pretty much everything Pancaked said. It makes me sad that many Asian American students have such a myopic viewpoint when it comes to Affirmative Action, and see everything in terms of “punishments” and “rewards”. It’s petty.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

fabrizio, I’m applying out of state, but if this Proposal 2 still holds up for OOS students then I’ll give you an infinite supply of e-hugs for that news.

</p>

<p>You should probably check just to be sure, but I am almost certain that it is the STATE that cannot consider racial classification at all in its PUBLIC sector. I believe that ought to apply to out-of-state applicants. Either way, best of luck.</p>

<p>

But still. I’ve said this already: I’m surrounded with Asians - Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese - who work hard, yet understand how affirmative action helps URMs and hurts them.

</p>

<p>I’ve discussed the issue of affirmative action for several years now on CC. I have occasionally heard arguments from parents that Asians should join whites in atoning for our country’s historical sins against blacks. I found and still find those arguments to be ludicrous. Why on Earth should I in any way be held responsible for sins that NO ONE in my family committed? If they want to atone for “their” sins, more power to them, but don’t drag me or us into it.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I don’t believe I have ever heard an argument like Pancaked’s. He’s saying that Asians should be punished because they’ve done “too well.” That’s even more ridiculous than the “Asians should join whites in atoning for the sins of slavery” argument. At the very least, with that argument I can see the supposed rationale of affirmative action, however un-Constitutional: reparations. With Pancaked’s argument, I don’t see the point of affirmative action other than to serve as a perverse “correction mechanism” for “groups” that do “too well.”</p>

[20more]

<p>beatles</p>

<p>You are very classy and I “feel” Asian culture from you.
Congrats on your success!</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Who says AA is “punishment”? for Asian Americans, as fabrizio is implying? By the same token you’re implying that the greatest “reward” for AA students would be getting into a top college, as opposed to actually a college that actually fits them. Actually, I think Affirmative Action serves as a good wake up call for many Asian students and parents (especially parents) that in the real world, grades and academics aren’t everything.

</p>

<p>Since when did “top college” and “fit” become disjoint? And who said that grades and academics are everything? I’m all for considering criteria like essays, extracurriculars, talents outside of the classroom (but not necessarily outside of school), and recommendations. I simply don’t see why you just HAVE to include racial classification, “or else.”</p>

<p>

And yes, you would miss out on a LOT by having non-Asian minorities on campus.

</p>

<p>I assume you meant “…by NOT having…”</p>

<p>What exactly would I be missing out on? And how do you know that without racial preferences, we won’t have non-Asian minorities? And don’t beat around the bush; you mean blacks, Hispanics, and on paper at least, Native Americans.</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>woeishe: You must be joking!
When colleges say economic factors, anyone who only thinks disadvantaged students is truly naive. My brother, who went to Penn for undergrad, says that there were legacy students who were absolutely “unqualified” for the Ivies. Plenty of students get a boost because they are legacies, or because their parents can throw down a building.
Think of it from a college’s view. They want diverse classes, but they also need money. Legacies will continue to donate, and rich parents can do a lot of favors for the college.</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>20more: Thanks! My school is very competitive, due to all the Asians and Jews. My closest friends are Asian, and I am 30% Asian.
Fabrizio: I wonder what you mean when you say " talents outside of the classroom (but not necessarily outside of school)"?
I think if the private colleges abolished the race factor, not much would change. Yes, the URM pop would go down and the Asian pop. up, but not as drastically as it would if we abolished legacy/economic AA, where whites would be hurt the most.
At public colleges, I have a totally different opinion. But it’s not here nor there now.</p>

[Pancaked]

<p>If Asians are doing too well, the solution is to give other ethnicites a slight advantage, yes. </p>

<p>Alternatively, you compare all applicants directly and allow Asians to continue to excel above other ethnicities in admission. Let’s explore this.</p>

<p>Asians are currently 1/3 as likely to get in as whites, 1/6 as Hispanics, 1/15 as African Americans (assuming all have similar profiles). Pretend this was restored to equal chances. </p>

<p>Quickly, Asians will come to comprise a larger and larger portion in every respectable university, given their increase chance of admission (essentially derived from culture and tradition). Take UC Berk, where the race-blindness has resulted in a class that is 46% Asian- over 9 times their representation in the US. Apply that nation-wide; Asians will consume 46% of college educational resources and 46% of the highest quality educations available in the nation, despite representing only 5% of the US population. Good for them! The percentage will continue to increase over time.</p>

<p>Meanwhile, though whites will be only marginally affected by the change, disadvantaged ethnicities (4/5 of the current AA and Hispanic collegiate population according the Princeton study) will be displaced from great schools, resulting in even more severe under-representation, particularly in top schools. These minorities will be left to lower-quality education on average than is the current situation, widening the ethnic gap economically and socially (this is called a positive feedback loop, as the effects will continue to magnify with each passing generation of reduced average education and reduced socioeconomic status). The social repercussions in society and in the college setting (from the lack of diversity) would be immense.</p>

<p>You talk about Michigan’s Proposal 2. As a result, AA representation dropped to 6%, despite accounting for 13% of the population. And that’s Michigan. Imagine the elite schools. In 1996, UC Berk’s race-blind policy led them to admit 14 African Americans total. The sheer lack of diversity led zero to enroll. 55 minorities total enrolled that year. 48 of those 55 chose not to enroll the next fall as a result of the lack of diversity and discrimination.</p>

<p>Look, you may be happy with disadvantaged students being rejected because they didn’t have an equal chance to excel and the resources/upbringing to work as hard as Asians, and you may be happy with schools ending up with extremely low representation of certain ethnicities, and you may be happy with the subsequent widening socioeconomic divisions and worsening state of minorities. That’s understandable. It’s one way to view “equality”.</p>

<p>The fact of the matter is, many colleges are NOT happy with that.</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>My state school views go along similarly to Pancaked.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

You’re giving a boost to those who weren’t raised in a culture that has such an incredible work ethic and dedication to education.

</p>

<p>

The slight affirmative action essentially compensates for the fact that some don’t have access to that incredible advantage.

</p>

<p>It’s really a perversion of logic to equate being forced by one’s parents to make sacrifices in one’s personal life for the sake of studying harder with having some kind of inheritance that makes life easy. You might not have said that explicitly, but that’s how it’s written.<br>
It’s a ridiculous argument.</p>

[altruism101]

<p>So from this article it appears that a black student has fifteen times higher chance of being admitted to a top college than an asian student with similar stats.</p>

<p>I wonder how blacks and asians compare in other areas hmm …
Income
For 2008, the median income of African American families was 39,789, for Asian American families it was 73,578.
The average median household income for the U.S. in that year was 52,029.
<a href=“http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0685.pdf[/url]”>http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0685.pdf&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>Crime
For 2002, approximately 46 percent of all prison inmates (excluding those whose race was not reported) were black; 36 percent, white; 16 percent, Hispanic; 1 percent, American Indian or Alaska Native; and 1 percent, Asian or Pacific Islander.
<a href=“https://www.aca.org/government/population.asp[/url]”>https://www.aca.org/government/population.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Health
African Americans are also about ten times more likely to become infected with HIV. Their risk is 1 in 22. For Asian Americans, it’s 1 in 222.
[HIV</a> Risk Survey: 1 In 22 African Americans Will Get HIV, CDC Says](<a href=“HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost”>HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost)
African Americans are also 2.4 times more likely to die than Asian Americans.
<a href=“http://www.kff.org/minorityhealth/upload/7630.pdf[/url]”>http://www.kff.org/minorityhealth/upload/7630.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>These statistics are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to advantages that Asian Americans have over African Americans from virtue of simply being born Asian American. </p>

<p>I wonder if the the top colleges are also aware of these disparities and have also considered that it may affect grades and standardized test scores. Hmm not a chance hah. They must just hate Asian Americans. </p>

<p>I’m so happy i was born black. I may have a higher chance of being poor, being incarcerated and also dying but hey that’s worth it if I can have a higher chance of getting into Harvard.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I wonder what you mean when you say " talents outside of the classroom (but not necessarily outside of school)"?

</p>

<p>I see that this was confusing. I guess what I had in mind would still fall squarely within extracurriculars, for example, the debate team, math team, playing a sport, and so forth. Thanks for the catch.</p>

<p>

I think if the private colleges abolished the race factor, not much would change. Yes, the URM pop would go down and the Asian pop. up, but not as drastically as it would if we abolished legacy/economic AA, where whites would be hurt the most.

</p>

<p>I believe this statement is very close to what Espenshade has found in his research. Kudos!</p>

[transfers2010]

<p>altruism101,</p>

<p>I know you and many others believe that the poor performance of blacks and Hispanics and the high performance of whites and Asians are functions of income. They aren’t. The richest black and Hispanic students tend to do worse on most academic measures than poor white and Asian students. (This is also the reason that colleges will never substitute race-based affirmative action for need-based affirmative action: need-based affirmative action won’t yield a racially diverse class.)</p>

[beatlesdisturbed]

<p>Fabrizio: What about a travel sports team along with school?
I have played on that travel team since I was 11. We’ve done a great deal of community service and did great in tournaments. My interviewer at Harvard said that it was much more impressive than the school sports I played. My Yale interviewer said that it was most impressive.</p>

[altruism101]

<p>Transfers2010, do you have a credible link to back up your claim?</p>