<p>It seems like a lot of people equate high SAT scores with being more qualified. They’ve done studies that show that the only thing that corresponds with SAT scored is how much money you come from. SATs have no correlation with how well you do in college or how deeply you think or what your GPA is. The only thing they correlate with his how much money you have. Frankly, I’m surprised they continue to use the SATs. Admissions officers are trying to build a diverse class, so if they just chose the people that had 2400 and 5.0 GPAs, that might be quite boring. The majority of applicants have already proved that they are good enough to succeed at these competitive schools (more applicants at top tier schools have a 4.0 than don’t), so from there they pick who is interesting with a whole class in mind, the idea being you learn from your peers who each have something that makes them really special. URMs often bring cultural diversity to a class which is very special. When it gets down to the point when someone has a 2350 or a 2300, they pick the person who will bring something to the culture that they don’t already have.</p>
<p>Fabrizio, assuming your argument that shifting the entire URM population down a tier would have no effect on education and income, and that getting rejected from Yale means you’ll be equally successful anywhere else…</p>
<p>I fail to see any benefit of removing the system, whereas keeping it preserves some people’s definitions of diversity and proportional representation, which make sense statistically. Even if you don’t believe they hold value, many do, and pure statistics would indicate that proportional representation should exist unless the college application system is somehow innately disfavoring certain ethnicites. Though by your beliefs, URMs being sifted out of elite institutions may not affect a certain definition of "diversity or overall income/education, I find the image of African Americans/Hispanics being drastically underrepresented at elite institutions to be extremely unfortunate and discouraging. Though this may reflect the SAT score distribution, it does not sit well with me and many others.</p>
<p>Fabrizio, what do you think of the National Hispanic and National Achievement programs? Should those be removed as well?</p>
<p>As a final note, there are obviously better ways to determine “disadvantaged” than ethnicity, but using socioeconoimic status and other factors would be begin to create a more proportional distribution of income levels in elite schools, which while possible fair would be pretty unacceptable to the financial teams at private schools and bring on a whole other wave of new problems (the wealthy being “punished” for being wealthy; as a vast minority in the US, they are currently drastically overrepresented in elite schools, and that would have to change).</p>
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<p>Then what is it, if not punishment?</p>
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<p>You seem to honestly dispute this. In other words, no, I have not mischaracterized your position; I have not straw manned you. You REALLY believe in “Yale or jail”!</p>
<p>You do realize the implications of your argument, yes? Most black students in higher education aren’t at elite institutions. (For that matter, most students of any racial classification aren’t.) You’re saying that they’re wasting their time at their “lesser” schools, and they’re destroying their children’s futures.</p>
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<p>First, proportional to what? Second, why does “pure statistics” indicate that proportional representation “should” exist? Explain your reasoning.</p>
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<p>I never said numbers are everything.</p>
<p>While we’re at it, what is “correct” representation to you? And how is your definition of “correct” representation not a quota?</p>
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<p>I have never been opposed to third-party scholarships.</p>
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<p>Hold on a minute. I never justified my support for socioeconomic preferences as you did for racial preferences. I never said that the rules of the game had to be changed to help the “losers” if the wealthy were doing “too well.”</p>
<p>I accept that in the end, socioeconomic preferences can be viewed as “punishing” the wealthy, but I emphasize that my rationale for supporting it is NOT the same as yours regarding racial preferences.</p>
<p>whatever it is, it’s not punishment. punishment makes it sound like the college admissions office is purposely not admitting asian americans because of something they’ve done wrong. the fact is that there is limited space in colleges and people will be rejected. like many people have said, the process is holistic and even if asian americans dominate in stats, that doesn’t cut it anymore. plus, if so many asian americans dominate grade-wise in similar areas of SAT, science, and math, (etc.) then obviously the admissions offices aren’t going to admit all the same profiles.</p>
<p>but i think that is all irrelevant. i CALL this- nobody says life is fair. deal with it. you got into whatever college you got into. i’m sure you’re going to a great place. good for you. if you didn’t get into where you want to go, it sucks but don’t go whining about how you were racially discriminated by the admissions office, cause nobody wants to hear it, myself included. you’re not being punished. not getting into harvard does not constitute punishment when you can get into the vast majority of the schools in the country. sorry, but harvard simply isn’t the only school for you in this world. there are others. sure, the system isn’t perfect and we can only hope it gets better, that someone in a position of influence can make it better. but for now, it is what it is. if you want to play the game, you gotta play by the rules. and no whining please.</p>
<p>With most policies, there is a cost/benefit to it. AA is such a sacred cow that no one can admit there are any drawbacks to it, no element of individual unfairness. I find this pretty amazing. </p>
<p>Whether or not you think AA is a good policy does not require you to think it is perfect. It seems no one on this thread is willing to concede this clear element of individual unfairness. </p>
<p>If you show up to the grocery store with $30 and can only buy $20 worth of fruit because you’re Asian, this is unfair. You can call it punishment for race, even though you probably won’t starve. You cannot fully enjoy the fruits of your labor.</p>
<p>If you register and show up to the voting booth, and your vote is only worth 3/5 than other people because you Asian, you are being punished for being Asian. You are not enjoying the full fruits of citizenship.</p>
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<p>It sounds like you don’t accept “disparate impact” as being unfair. In other words, unless there isn’t intentional discrimination or bias against Asians, if their enrollment is pushed down due to indirect factors, then it isn’t punishment and not unfair.</p>
<p>[Yglesias</a> Discrimination Against Asian Americans in College Admissions](<a href=“http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2009/05/discrimination-against-asian-americans-in-college-admissions/]Yglesias”>http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/2009/05/discrimination-against-asian-americans-in-college-admissions/)</p>
<p>"Kevin Carey, an expert in higher education policy, mentions offhand that Its clear that, given the opportunity, elite American universities are prone to implement discriminatory admissions policies that artificially limit the number of American students of Chinese, Korean, and Japanese descent. His point is that the same factors underlying this trend will presumably put a stop to the influx of Chinese students from China that come to American colleges and universities.</p>
<p>But the fact itself is genuinely remarkable. Were a country that congratulates itself on having dismantled Jim Crow and the system of quotas that used to cap the number of Jewish students at top schools. But the quota system appears to have merely re-emerged with Asian-Americans as the victims. And nobody talks about it, though the discriminatory mechanisms are only slightly more subtle."</p>
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<p>So a disadvantage unique to one “group” is not punishment? OK.</p>
<p>“Limited space in colleges” does not justify racial preferences. In fact, it’s a red herring in this discussion, as no one disputes it.</p>
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<p>I never said I was for stats-only admissions.</p>
<p>Is there any evidence at all that Asians are inferior in the other aspects? If anything, there appears to be evidence to the contrary. According to [Inside</a> Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch]Inside”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/04/20/mismatch), at Duke, the admissions office rates Asians’ essays, personal qualities, and recommendations–all subjective criteria–higher than those of blacks and Hispanics. What’s more, of the three, Asians rank lower than whites only in “personal qualities.”</p>
<p>Is Duke an outlier among elite institutions? I doubt it.</p>
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<p>Not getting into Harvard isn’t the punishment. Having a harder time getting in than similar candidates of other racial classifications (i.e. the “disadvantage” you yourself referred to) is.</p>
<p>[Discrimination</a> against Asian Americans in the Higher Education Admission Process? The Asian American Studies Program at the University of Maryland](<a href=“Private Site”>Private Site)</p>
<p>"Racial discrimination in the admission of Asian Americans continues to be a vexing issue within the Asian Pacific American communities. It has garnered international attention, as examined in an article by the International Herald Tribune. Here is an another article that examines a new student organization addressing this topic:</p>
<p>By: Irene Chen, Brown Daily Herald, February 9, 2007; Media credit: Tai Ho Shin. Picture of Neil Vangela (left) and Jason Carr (right).</p>
<p>Many may pass over the question without a second thought, but identifying race or ethnicity on Browns undergraduate admission application has become a concern for Neil Vangala 09. Vangala has started a group on campus called Asian Equality in Admissions, which will address discrimination in admission against Asians and Asian Americans.</p>
<p>Vangala and Jason Carr 09 started the group last month after learning of a recent case of supposed discrimination against Jian Li, currently a freshman at Yale University. Li filed a civil rights complaint against Princeton University, alleging that the university had discriminated against him during the admission process.</p>
<p>Stereotypes are ingrained in the admission process, Carr said. Like (Asians) are too studious, or they lack extracurricular activities. </p>
<p>I think we have a right to know if (admission officers) discriminate against us after reading our names, Vangala said. On paper, simply because theyre Asian, you assume certain things about them.</p>
<p>Carr said many students at Yale think Li shouldnt complain about where he ended up. (Li) was such a good student, so he got into one of the Ivies that he applied to, Carr said. We fully realize that his complaint wont fully change anything.</p>
<p>We think this is indicative of a trend, Vangala said. Jian Li is trying to identify a trend, but the response is that Asians should accept less.</p>
<p>This general ambivalence towards Lis case was reflected in an op-ed published in the Daily Princetonian, the schools student newspaper. The op-ed mocked Lis complaint against the university, stating, I so good at math and science. Perfect 2400 SAT score. Ring bells? Just in cases, let me refresh your memories. I the super smart Asian. Princeton the super dumb college, not accept me.</p>
<p>Chanakya Sethi, the editor in chief of the Princetonian when the op-ed was published, wrote in an e-mail to The Herald, The piece should be judged in context with due consideration of its intent. It was run in a joke issue full of parody and satire, and our intent was to mock stereotypes.</p>
<p>Its not appropriate. It doesnt matter who perpetuates the stereotypes, Carr said.</p>
<p>Vangala and Carrs concern follows in the footsteps of a 1983 report conducted by various student groups at Brown, including the Latin American Students Organization, the Asian American Students Association and the Organization of United African Peoples. The groups used information given to them by the admission office to conclude in a 43-page report that the University had discriminated against Asians.</p>
<p>As a matter of fact, they even convinced the Brown Corporation to admit that forms of inadvertent discrimination were working to preclude Asians from Brown, Vangala said. They then said that if this type of prejudice went unrectified, the discrimination would be intentional. It is a major aim of our group to publish a similar report. If our report proved discrimination, then these prejudices would be, by past admission of the Corporation, intentional.</p>
<p>Vangala is hoping to work with other campus groups to establish the groups goals and to provide fair representation of their interest on campus.</p>
<p>We want to work with different groups, other multicultural groups on campus, Vangala said. Each of us will have a vote. Our first question will be if (we can) ask the admissions office for data, and we will ask a representative from each organization to vote.</p>
<p>Dean of Admission James Miller 73 told The Herald that the admission office is ready and willing to discuss these issues with Vangala and Carr. They have scheduled a meeting for later this month.</p>
<p>I think its absolutely appropriate to talk to anyone who wants to discuss this issue, Miller said. However, its against University policy to release individuals data. For one thing, the admissions process looks at a myriad of variables, and to look at one factor makes no sense.</p>
<p>We have an increasing amount of students not reporting their racial or ethnic identity out of principle or because they no longer fit into a certain category, Miller said. Our priority is to build a community intellectually and culturally diverse and to put together the most vibrant and diverse group of students.</p>
<p>Lis hope in filing his complaint against Princeton is that he will be able to bring awareness to the issue. In an e-mail to The Herald, Li wrote that he expected to see a surge of criticism after these discriminatory admissions policies were revealed, but there was none.</p>
<p>I am very glad that Neil and Jason have taken the steps to start AEA this is precisely the kind of activism and consciousness-raising that I hoped to encourage when I filed the civil rights complaint, Li wrote.</p>
<p>Don Joe, a Florida lawyer and an activist for Asian Americans, started an online petition calling on Princeton to release its admission statistics.</p>
<p>Part of Princetons response was that We dont release information on our ethnic groups because no one in the public has asked, Joe said. We decided to start this petition Jian Li and myself and some other people trying to put pressure on Princeton to release statistics.</p>
<p>My personal viewpoint is that they should eliminate race. If they want to recruit disadvantaged students, they should use family net worth to make the distinction, Joe said. I dont think people should discriminate against Asian Americans in order to increase the number of black and Hispanic students.</p>
<p>You can look at test scores, theyre easily obtainable and objective There was a Princeton professor (who) looked at it, and he determined that Asian Americans need to score at least 50 points higher than whites to have the same chance of admission, Joe said, referring to a 2005 study by Princeton researchers Thomas Espenshade and Chang Chung, who analyzed data from three selective private universities.</p>
<p>When asked about what he thought of the group started by Vangala and Carr, Joe said, As far as I understand, their goals are similar to mine to achieve equality in education for Asian Americans.</p>
<p>Belinda Navi 09, who coordinated Southeast Asian Week in November, said she was ambivalent when asked about the group and its goals. I think equality is subjective. Its hard to pinpoint discrimination, Navi said. Itll be a challenge of this group. But I think starting dialogue with the admissions committee is vital.</p>
<p>Navi said she was wary about simply not checking off ethnicities on her college application. My ethnicities are definitely a part of who I am, and inevitably what you communicate in your application is who you are, Navi said.</p>
<p>I think the purpose of checking ethnicity is to understand the environment that an applicant comes from, Navi said. I think that if people didnt check their ethnicity (on applications), those who are privileged with the parents who have the money to pay for a violin, cleats, to pay for debate trips those will be the ones who are going to be at an advantage.</p>
<p>Navi said affirmative action is a necessary evil and that students should focus on the lack of equality in public schools around the country rather than affirmative action.</p>
<p>(Public schools) are the reason why these race quotas exist, Navi said. Affirmative action wouldnt be necessary if the government would look at racism in public schools today. Its trying to correct for past injustices in a somewhat unfair way.</p>
<p>Vangala and Carr said they are not opposed to affirmative action. Policies like affirmative action and other forms of positive racial preferences were introduced for the very same reason that we constructed our group, Vangala said. By fighting such policies, we would therefore be implicitly encouraging the very discrimination that our group is trying to stop.</p>
<p>I do believe in affirmative action. There are people who have fewer opportunities to educate themselves those people tend to be of a different racial background, said Soyoung Park 09, the Asian and Asian-American student services programming assistant for the Third World Center.</p>
<p>(Asians are) constantly grouped with white Americans, but when it comes to admissions, I think its unfair to group us with minorities then, Park said. All I can say is that until we become a society thats non-discriminatory, well never really have fair admissions.</p>
<p>Vangala said he wants to be clear about what he is trying to do with the group. Were not arguing for the University to change the definition of merit. Were not arguing against racial preferences. We think a diverse community is important, Vangala said. Were arguing solely against Asian Americans being discriminated against in the college admissions process.</p>
<p>I’m Filipino-American. I wonder if it’s lying/unethical to put “Pacific Islander” instead of “Asian” on my apps, or even just “White”? Take away that initial prejudice.</p>
<p>Which is easier to consider on an application? : which race you identify with or how much money you make (which requires time-consuming verification).</p>
<p>Although it’s not always true, more times than in any other race/ethnicity, blacks and Hispanics fall into a lower income bracket. To expedite the process of socioeconomic AA, colleges use racial AA, which brings diversity in race and frequently in economy. Even if it’s unfair, it significantly helps both colleges and certain disadvantaged students, necessitating it’s continuation no matter how much the Asians or the whites disagree.</p>
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<p>Isn’t there a federal entity that deals with that kind of thing?</p>
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<p>No. That is simply not true. Last year, Duke’s student newspaper ran an article stating, “Although minorities are more likely to come from families of lesser means than whites at Duke, they still come from affluent backgrounds. Of the freshmen reporting family incomes in 2001 and 2002, white students reported the highest average family income of about $230,000 per year, according to the 2006 Campus Life and Learning Project. Latinos, Asians and blacks reported average family incomes of $170,980, $153,401 and $118,316, respectively.”</p>
<p>[url=<a href=“http://dukechronicle.com/article/duke-draws-rich-kids-all-colors]Source[/url”>Duke draws ‘rich kids of all colors’ - The Chronicle]Source[/url</a>]</p>
<p>For reference, the article states that the mean income for U.S. households in 2001 was $58,208. </p>
<p>So the average “URM” at Duke is far from disadvantaged. Either you are mistaken or Duke is an outlier among elite schools.</p>
<p>And how exactly does “diversity” help colleges? Explain the reasoning.</p>
<p>Fabrizio provides an excellent source by showing that at Duke, Hispanics have a higher average income than Asians, yet the main consensus seems to show that Hispanics are disadvantaged. Nice find, Fabrizio. :)</p>
<p>oh my dear asians</p>
<p>you work much harder; have better test scores; are mostly middle-class; are so cute and fuddly; are confined to study every hour of your life</p>
<p>yet you will always be rejected from ivy league</p>
<p><evil laughter…hahaha=“”></evil></p>
<p>Regardless of Duke’s statistics, the reality of income inequity remains. If you look at recent income distribution graphs by race, you can see significantly disproportionate differences between Asians/Whites and Hispanics/Blacks. See for yourself: <a href=“http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/2/2/0/0902091746401513.png[/url]”>http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/2/2/0/0902091746401513.png</a></p>
![http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/2/2/0/0902091746401513.png[/url]](http://images-mediawiki-sites.thefullwiki.org/09/2/2/0/0902091746401513.png%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
<p>Statistics will tell you that, from a pool of minority applicants, more students on average will fall under a low (<60K) income bracket than will students from a pool of white/asian applicants. I think we can agree that the probability of choosing a black/hispanic applicant with <60K is higher than the probability of choosing a white/asian applicant. </p>
<p>I’d also venture to say that if you were to take a large sampling size of minority students in, say, Harvard, and determine the TOTAL need-based scholarship granted for that year, it would be much greater than that of a sample of Asian students from the same institution. This could potentially show that race AA does, in fact, address socioeconomic status, albeit more loosely. </p>
<p>In no way am I implying that there aren’t exceptions. It’s just easier to continue race AA when you’re, in a way, killing two birds with one stone (pardon the cliche). If top schools were to implement socioeconomic AA, it would be of no benefit to them, since they would be losing revenue. This is where your question comes into play: </p>
<p>“How exactly does “diversity” help colleges? Explain the reasoning.”</p>
<p>There’s probably more quantified evidence of benefits out there.</p>
<p>But how I see it, it’s all about insurance for the future. If there are more minorities on campus, there is a guaranteed higher frequency of cultural interactions. Students leaving such environments are better equipped to deal with society when coming from an environment so reflective of society. In the end, these students, it is the hope of top schools, will either make their institutions famous or donate to the school after making it big. Sure this is all speculation, but its speculation that has, in many cases, proven to be effective. Also, who wants to be in a school thats so homogenous in makeup? Not me.</p>
<p>Plus, if it didn’t benefit the schools in some way, I doubt race AA would still be around. So you shouldn’t doubt that aspect in the least.</p>
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Same here. Technically we are Pacific Islanders but officially Asian so…</p>
<p>On my college apps, I’m putting other on ethnicity and putting HUMAN. I’m sick and tired of AA. Or I might just apply to a Southern or Midwest college.</p>
<p>Hehe. That’ll be good.</p>