Agree completely. And I have buddies of Asian descent who are total chill boys. Surfers, climbers, glorified ski bums, rafters, … total granola, “quality of life” people who spend their time doing what they want to do and not chasing money or prestige of any kind. Opposite of type A. In fact, quite a few. Now, I live in Seattle and we have a sizable Asian population, so may not be the best statistical sample. But there you have it. They’re not “all the same”. Not even close.
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Less representative samples would be found in situations like:
- Students at or alumni of highly selective universities.
- Students aspiring to highly selective universities or parents with those aspirations for their students (this group is highly overrepresented on these forums).
- People working in “elite” professions.
- Immigrants who originally came on visas for PhD students.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/02/15/legacy-colleges-universities-black-brown/
“Nearly 70% of legacy applicants to Harvard are white”.
“In Harvard’s Class of 2022, 36 percent of those admitted were legacy”.
These legacy white parents are probably also pushing prestige and forcing their kids to go to Harvard regardless of “fit”.
Should we be educating them as well? Isnt SUNY just as good? Should they really be piling on tons of debt just to attend an elite school?
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Forget about SUNY for a moment. A 36% admission rate to Harvard is a sweet deal. That same white kid could very well get rejected at Wesleyan. My advice to an Asian kid might be different just because I think his chances of getting into Wesleyan - or a similar college - would be just as good, if not better, especially if they apply ED.
The “kids” (they’re young adults at this point, but I’ve known them since they were in middle school) I ride the elevator down with every day would find this entire thread very peculiar.
I don’t think there is anything wrong for a parent to say that they won’t pay for anything other than HYPSM (and maybe a small set of other schools, or not) or in state public. If someone thinks one of HYPSM doesn’t fit, then they can go to the instate public. Since the parent is paying, there is no obligation on the parent to entertain all and sundry schools. The parent can also determine what according to them is worth paying for.
This is not called forcing the kid. The word force presumes the kid is entitled to an 80k/yr education.
And that brings us full circle. What do you tell a self-identified Asian Chance Me poster who is full pay and their only choices are HYPMS or their in-state flagship?
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If their stats are in range you tell them that any chancing is a silly exercise. If you think they won’t get in — then you tell them politely it is a high reach. I chanced my kids — and it is an internal family matter. You need that level of intimacy with the applications that went out and surrounding factors to be able to chance with any modicum of success.
That is the honest truth.
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There is no way to accurately chance any given student without seeing all the applicants applying that cycle, and understanding the individual institutional needs. The balancing of an incoming class changes yearly. The best we can do is guesstimate.
IMO we do students a disservice by suggesting they have above average shots at a HYPSM level school. Those are reaches for everyone. Every single student should have a well balanced list.
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If the in state flagship is affordable for them, there are pathways to study what they want and they’d be happy to attend they are in good shape so a lot depends on what that flagship is.
Assuming these are all affordable and student wants to attend the flagship:
HYPSM+Ohio State - in state students are never rejected, they are deferred to a regional but will be on main campus soon enough. If students aren’t willing to start at a regional campus they need to add more colleges.
HYPSM+UWash(CS) - this is a list with all reaches even for in state and needs more colleges
HYPSM+UC - (top 9%) if UC means only Berkley or UCLA and not Merced, then this list also needs more colleges
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It doesn’t need to be instate flagship. It just needs to be instate public. I am sure the public will be more affordable than most other schools.
Our small Ohio privates are what have been quite often providing the best financial aid packages. Students on a budget really need to look into those. Lots of families get priced out of the flagship’s on campus cost, but can afford on campus with aid or scholarships elsewhere.
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That’s not quite true. There are certain awards that dramatically increase the odds. I know the STEM awards that matter. One in particular results in about 3 HYPSM acceptances on average.
When I see awards that matter, I tell them their chances are much better than average and invite them to PM me for detailed advice, with the only stipulation being they tell me their admittances afterwards. Their admittances are in line with my predictions.
I suspect there are similar awards that matter in the humanities, but I don’t know them.
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Well, “average acceptance rate” does mean some applicants have a higher chance of acceptance and some have lower. It’s a common fallacy I’ve observed on CC that every highly qualified applicant has the same chance of acceptance. Some candidates have certain achievements that give them a significant boost. For example, until a few years ago winning the top prizes at USAMO would provide a huge admission boost at MIT or Caltech - not as much now, but still a boost nonetheless. There are other factors that provide boosts too so someone may in fact have an above average shot. Of course, this doesn’t take away from the need to have a balanced and affordable list.
I think we’re veering away from the “Asian” focus of this thread though. So let me ask: if an OP says s/he wants to apply to “all the Ivies” or “all T20s”, etc.; confirms budget is not an issue, or has affordable alternatives they are happy with; overall list is balanced – how would you choose to address their choices?
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Fair point about the high level awards but those posters are few and far between.
I think everyone should have reaches on their list. That’s part of what makes it balanced. I do think that’s worth asking people to think about the fit piece. “All the Ivies and all the T20s” makes for a ton of why us essays (and essays in general). Regardless of race, I think the adults on this site should be asking those questions (and for the most part I think we do point that out when we see those kinds of lists).
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I agree, it’s fair to ask those questions of all applicants (and I’ll continue to observe chance-me threads to see if we’re doing this even handedly without regard to the applicant’s race).
I am a firm believer in having a balanced, affordable and realistic list - but I can also see how prestige can be a fit factor for some applicants. I agree prestige is often over-valued but once all those other factors are addressed I personally have no issue with anyone valuing prestige any more than I have an issue with someone valuing an active social scene, sports school, or anything else.
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It would depend on how they define T10. If they, as many 17 y/o kids do, equate it with the first ten spots on the National Universities section of the USNews poll, that leaves an awful lot of lower hanging fruit rotting on the vine.
If, as @CFP suggests, they have constructed these lists largely because it’s what’s expected of them, I would gently suggest that they can have extremely “Ivy-like” experiences (small classes; fascinating classmates; exposure to cutting edge scholarship) at literally dozens of colleges and universities their families have probably never heard of. Some of them may already appear on their “match” lists, others might make suitable swaps.
And, who knows, once you get below the clusterjam created by the magazine poll, there may actually be super rejective colleges where being Asian helps the school meet its diversity goals.
That’s my $.02.
They are, of course, free to hold their tuition money hostage to be released on whatever terms they like. But doing so only on the condition that they attend any particular set of schools, much less HYPSM, makes them crappy parents and people in my book. YMMV. Of course, if the condition is based on affordability, that’s another matter. But I don’t think that’s the limitation you had in mind.
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When kids apply to more than 6+ (definitely anything over 10) holistic high reaches, I almost always question if this will impact the quality of their essays and actually reduce their probabilities of getting into a top ranked school. While it is important that the school “fit” the applicant, it is equally important to the school that the applicant “fit” them. Have a well developed sense of your strengths and interests that are supported by actions, achievements and third parties (LoRs and awards/recognition), choose colleges that value those strengths and point to resources at those schools that will help you further develop your interests. Be as specific as possible in ways that are not obvious cut and paste jobs. Make use of REA, EA and ED (and those results) as appropriate to cull your list for RD – more reaches or more match/safeties.
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Yes. I had a different limitation in mind. The person paying the 320k is entitled to an opinion as to whether a certain purchase is worthwhile or not. Certainly more entitled to an opinion than outside parties that are actually not paying any money for that particular kid’s education.
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