<p>How about how often the student will be taught by Teaching Assistants? Is that helpful to the OP??</p>
<p>% TA , School</p>
<p>16% , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>< 1% , Claremont McK
< 1% , Pomona
< 1% , Harvey Mudd</p>
<p>Would the OP like to going to school in a diverse environment? Lots of ways to measure this. Let’s start with Geographical Diversity:</p>
<p>% of OOS students , School</p>
<p>7% , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>46% , Claremont McK
50% , Pomona
36% , Harvey Mudd</p>
<p>How about ethnic diversity?</p>
<p>Black , Asian , Hispanic , White , Intl , School</p>
<p>4% , 42% , 12% , 39% , 4% , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>4% , 12% , 11% , 67% , 6% , Claremont McK
8% , 14% , 11% , 62% , 4% , Pomona
2% , 21% , 8% , 66% , 3% , Harvey Mudd</p>
<p>RML, I’m the parent of two juniors and we’re spending much of this coming semester schlepping all over the country to visit the close to 20 colleges that they’ve expressed an interest in. These colleges range all over the top 50 in the university and college rankings, though their sweet spot is probably in the 20-30 range, and the “top name” college for the field that S is interested in is in the 20’s. They’ll go to whichever places best suit them, because excellent educations can be had at all of them if you put in the effort. “What impresses other people” simply isn’t on the list of things to consider, at all. I guarantee you that many of these schools are virtual unknowns to their fellow high schoolers and to people in our general community. Don’t care a bit. It’s their problem if they haven’t heard of these schools, not my kids’. </p>
<p>So, yes, if they were investigating schools in England, that’s a big enough life decision that we <em>would</em> go visit. </p>
<p>You seem to think that “prestige” comes from “amassing credentials that impress other people.” In that regard, you’re no different from the teenager who has to have a Louis Vuitton bag because all her friends do, and her reason is “because it will make me a popular girl!” I’m not interested in playing that game. It’s only important that I impress myself with my choices. People who are truly prestigious and elite don’t have to chase it so overtly the way you do.</p>
<p>Is the OP interested in how wealthy the school and how much money they might be able to commit to provide services to undergraduate students?? Btw, I think most observers would expect UCB to be under great financial pressure going forward. The fallout to undergraduate students at UCB is not yet clear, but no one expects it to get better any time soon.</p>
<p>Endowment Per Capita , School</p>
<p>$160,885 , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>$329,795 , Claremont McK
$870,680 , Pomona
$262,747 , Harvey Mudd</p>
<p>Does the OP care about how quickly they might graduate? One of the knocks that you hear about UC Berkeley is that it is a sink-or-swim environment and where students regularly fall out of the system. Do you want to pay for more than 4 years of college because the school was unable to get you the classes you need?</p>
<p>4-Year Graduation Rate , School</p>
<p>64% , UC BERKELEY</p>
<p>90% , Claremont McK
90% , Pomona
83% , Harvey Mudd</p>
<p>Does the OP care about the way that the institution spends its money to support its students? Here’s how they compare:</p>
<p>Spending per student , School</p>
<p>43 , UC BERKELEY
(among national universities) </p>
<p>15 , Claremont McK
8 , Pomona
12 , Harvey Mudd
(among LACs)</p>
<p>Have you given any thought to the possibility that your Father might be right? I know, gasp, it’s hard to fathom. </p>
<p>You say that some think only of “prestige”, and not “quality of education”. There is a REASON that schools obtain a level of prestige. And that is due, in large part, to the quality of eduction. I’ll never get over how many people think that isn’t true. </p>
<p>It’s the same in every country. If one comes back to the US with a degree from Oxford (UK), that is NOT held in the same esteem as a degree from…“Tiny-outlying-unknown-village-community-college”. </p>
<p>Schools become world reknown BECAUSE of their quality. Their name would never have been recognized otherwise.</p>
<p>That is NOT to say that there aren’t other great colleges, there are. And it’s NOT to say that the elite colleges are perfect, they aren’t. But…if you want to get a job, you need to impress your potential employer with your skills. WHERE you went to college immediately says something about you. Like it or not. So does the suit/dress you’re wearing, your manner of speech, etc. You’re a package of skills they want to hire, or they don’t. You can argue with your father all you want. And, if you win, and you go home, and hear “You went to the states where you had SO many choices for your education, and you decided to go to college WHERE? Was that your decision or couldn’t you get into a “good” college?” - Then your Father can say “I told you so”. </p>
<p>Hopefully it’s the opposite. If you go wherever you want, and get a great job…then YOU can know you were right. But…it’s hard to believe that sometimes parents ARE right. Is it worth the risk?</p>
<p>But it’s not that simple when you’re comparing a very small school with a large school. If, for example, Williams and Amherst are not as famous around the world as the Ivy League schools, it’s not because of the quality of education they provide.</p>
<p>^^^So very true!</p>
<p>To the OP,
All of the above datapoints reflect how the undergraduate student environment at UC Berkeley is going to be different from what you’d receive at a place like Claremont McKenna. Not necessarily worse as students can have good experiences at both. But definitely different and a large part of this choice should be determined by what type of environment you think most favors you as an undergraduate student.</p>
<p>My conclusion is that, in comparison to UC Berkeley, CMC and others like it provide a more consistently strong student body, a smaller, higher-touch learning environment, a professorship that is far more oriented to undergraduates than to research and an institution that prioritizes undergraduate education and spends money to support it.</p>
<p>Nice stats, hawkette.</p>
<p>This is how much they would make after college:</p>
<p>Berkeley $112,000
CMC $102,000</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>What would they make in Japan? Doing the kind of work OP hopes to do? All these stats are interesting, but they don’t really help the OP that much.</p>
<p>Pizzagirl, good for your sons.</p>
<p>way more than half of those American students who’ve enrolled in St Andrews have not visited the uni before applying. Only went to visit during enrollment time. same is true for Harvard.</p>
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<p>Very well put. </p>
<p>RML - point of clarification - I have a D and an S. And I don’t really <em>care</em> if other people would / could / should visit Harvard or St. Andrew’s or Oxford. You asked me what I would do, and I told you. I’m very much into finding what is the best option for me (or for my kids), and other people’s generalized opinions of prestige simply aren’t all that important to me. They appear to be very important to you. </p>
<p>I care about opinions that are based on data, fact and / or experience. If an Asian person doesn’t know about CMC and concludes that “therefore it must not be very good and this person can’t be very smart” – well, then, that’s an opinion that’s meaningless to me, because it’s an uninformed opinion. You seem to treat other people’s opinions as if they are … well, either made of gold or always right. The average American thinks Ohio State is great and never heard of CMC so it can’t be any good … so what? Doesn’t make it so. You seem to confuse opinions with reality.</p>
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<p>Oh - you seem to have confused “prestigious” with “makes a lot of money.” Tant pis pour vous – you haven’t figured out that they aren’t the same thing, by a long shot.</p>
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<p>Or, they become well known because they are seen / cited in books and movies, or because they have winning sports teams.</p>
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<p>No, Berkeley is know for its research and graduate programs.</p>
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<p>Well, of course not, St Andrews or Harvard would be a pretty big opportunity to turn down so it is reasonable to go to those schools sight unseen. Most people can’t get into St Andrews or Harvard.</p>
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<p>Yes, good for Pizzagirl. That is how you help your kids find the right school for them.</p>
<p>The point has been brought up several times about the importance of the alumni network in helping you find a job. I agree with this. For the OP it would be a good idea to determine how much each school helps with this and more specifically how much they will be able to help with job placement in Japan. One of the earlier posters gave a link to CMC Japan’s alumni network. I hope the OP will check it out.</p>
<p>I don’t see anything wrong with working backward from your goal. If working in a reputable company in Japan is your ultimate goal, then you need to plan and do things now that increase your chance of achieving that goal. If everyone who knows about the job market there tells you it is important to carry a degree from such and such schools, then you have to seriously consider it. Otho, college education is more than just acquiring a trade. It offers once-in-a-lifetime life changing experience. It can be the best part of your growing-up. Consider your choice carefully.</p>
<p>Apart from the whole “prestige or not” thing, I like your attitude of seeing yourself happy at all the schools on your list. This attitude should minimize any regret you may have after finally picking a school to matriculate. Berkeley is a great school, you’ll be surrounded by other great kids and be happy there. It has a huge Asian population as hawkette posted upthread. This can provide a good cultural transition for you as you prepare to fully immerse yourself in Japan. Going back to your goal of getting a good job in Japan, Berkeley, along with Cornell and a few others on your list, has the big name recognition that your dad talked about.</p>
<p>Some words on the prestige discussion. I agree with R124687, prestigious schools – as in well known and respected schools - are all quality schools and that they are prestigious in part because they offer high quality education. In some parts of the world, some US colleges may be viewed more prestigious than how we view them domestically because some politicians, national figures or top business executives in those parts of the world happen to be alumni of these schools, or because they have well known student exchange programs there. Such perturbations are usually in the noise as they do not normally boost a third tier school to top tier. I also agree with others that there are other high quality schools which for whatever reason do not have the same prestige. </p>
<p>Since the OP has expressed a strong desire to work in Japan after graduation, I don’t see anything wrong with picking a school he likes and is “prestigious” in Japan. We human are social sentient beings and it is natural for us to desire peer approval. We want to be praised and valued by others. There is nothing wrong with it. What is wrong is when we drop our values in order to gain the approval of others, and I don’t see it being the case here in choosing colleges of similar quality. I am reminded of the lyric in the theme song of Cheers – “You wanna go where people know your name.”</p>
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<p>This is not a luxury that all students can afford (financially).</p>
<p>You act as if it were a given that this is how the college search and selection process should go. For most students, this is not their reality. This is an inherently upper middle class perspective that not everyone shares or can share.</p>
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<p>People who are truly prestigious and elite don’t have to imply that they are.</p>
<p>So what, meangirl? I <em>get</em> that not everyone can schlep everywhere. RML asked me a specific question and I answered him. </p>
<p>And I never claimed to be “prestigious” or “elite.” I merely made the point that those who are, don’t have an overwhelming need to impress others, or to amass credentials for the sake of impressing others. They go to HYPSM because they like it there, not because they’re anxious for a brand name to wear on their sleeves and feel that no one will ever think anything of them unless they have that brand name.</p>