Asian student filing complaint against Princeton for discrimination-WSJ article

Applying to College
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<p>"Not necessarily true. They may have admitted him because to Yale, he appeared to be such a scholar that Yale was willing to overlook his lack of ECs. He also may have filled some other need for Yale to create a well rounded class. No one knows why he was rejected by Yale. He also may have blown that interview. For instance, I heard of a stellar URM National Merit finalist who was accepted to one of HPY..."</p>

<p>I thought it's basically been agreed that just because one 'looks really scholarly' doesn't mean that you can get into Yale or another comparable school. Yale doesn't want hermits. The fact that Jian got into Yale means that he wasn't a hermit. Your argument might fly at Caltech but not at a school that "looks at the overall applicant" like Yale. Also, it might be regrettable, but on an online discussion forum I don't think it's appropriate to bring in your personal experiences or what you've heard because there is no way for us to believe that they are true and they could easily have been made up to prove your point. I'm not calling you or anyone else a liar but I think we need to realize that arguments with personal anecdotes that might not be valid might not be trusted and thus probably shouldn't be used to back up points.</p>

<p>"There is an overabundance of Asians applying to top colleges who are premed because their parents forced them to do this. Every year, I interview students as a Harvard alum interviewer, and every year, about a quarter of the students who apply to Harvard from my area are Asian even though Asians are about 1% of my area's population."</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I find this a bit scary. Let's assume that what you say is true and that many Asian students that are interviewed say, "yeah, actually I don't want to do the major I wrote down it's just that my parents made me do it" (I find this unlikely btw, as Asians who are applying to Harvard aren't dumb and would probably realize that by showing that they can't break away from their parents' wishes to follow their own dreams would not serve them well in the application process). Let's say you get an Asian applicant who doesn't say this but has written down biology/medicine on their application. It sounds to me that you're going into the interview with an attitude of, "oh, he's asian wants to major in science obviosuly parents choice, nothing special." It might sound unbelievable, but many Asians actually have a passion for medicine and want to go into medicine because, well, it helps others! (whoa can't believe they have some personality and want to help the community!) Is it right for an applicant who wrote down what their, not their parents's real passion and dreams were to be rejected because someone suspects it's their parents behind the scenes making the decisions? I'd say no, I'd say it sounds like punishing someone for showing their individual goals, which we all agree is something colleges want.</p>

<p>"why should that mean that top U.S. colleges should feel obligated to accept even more Asians when Asians already are represented far more than their numbers in the general U.S. population?"</p>

<p>Number, numbers, numbers. They don't matter right? People saying oh, there are more things to an applicant than SAT scores, scores tell you nothing about whether or not the kid is a social butterfly or not, say the numbers on your SAT grade report don't matter. They say the numbers on your transcript don't matter. Then why do the numbers of how many Asians there are on college campuses matter? Every student should be looked at as an individual away from their SAT score. Then every Asian student should also be looked at away from how many Asians there are on college campuses. Aren't you being a bit selective in the numbers you're look at? This isn't discrimination, it's discriminasian.
"So are you telling me that something fishy was going on when I got accepted to Stanford and Yale but was rejected by UCLA?
Am I going to sue UCLA for discriminating against my race, or my name or the way I look, my accent or whatever that can be subject to discrimination?"</p>

<p>I'm echoing what I said above, thanks for your personal anecdote but unfortunately we have no idea whether or not it's true and it isn't the greatest evidence that can be presented. Nice job getting into Stanford and Yale though.</p>

<p>"As one who has recently interviewed college students who have in fact demonstrated an appreciation of wider humanity -- a CONCRETE appreciation as evidenced in self-sacrifice & ongoing commitment to others, often to others much less fortunate than themselves -- I hardly find Jian's actions in the same laudable category as 'serving humanity.'"</p>

<p>Let's face the facts. Do you think that the majority of these students would have gone out of their way to help others if that wasn't the only thing separating them from high school and Harvard's gates? Jian's actions might not be "serving humanity" as much as the person who raised 999999 dollars for the refugees in the small county in antarctica but he believes he has seen an instance of discrimination that needs to be righted. Whether or not he's right or not, I think his opinion deserves to be respected and his attempting to right what HE sees as an injustice (again, doesn't matter if you agree/disagree) should be looked highly upon. If anyone replies to this point saying, "well, he's wrong" then they completely missed my point. Trying to right what you see as wrong whether it be this or lack of a vaccine for malaria in Africa is a good thing.</p>

<p>"Again, I find it arrogant for someone to think high scores are the sole barameter for admissions anyway"</p>

<p>He doesn't. His acceptance to Yale makes it very clear that he values EC activities.</p>

<p>"Whoa there, buddy. Do NOT put words into my mouth. In no part of my post did I connect math/science and pre-med/law with Asians. If you chose to connect the two in your own mind, what does that say? My point goes back to what I said about choosing a class rather than a bunch of qualified individuals. Biology, psychology, and economics are the most popular majors at most colleges. Wanting to major in these areas or having ecs in these areas won't really make your app stand out;"</p>

<p>First, implying that I connect Asians and math/science is ridiculous seeing as in the same post that you're criticizing me for, I mention Asians like Michael Chang, Michelle Kwan, the founders of youtube, and a founder of Yahoo. They didn't go into math/science. I'll restate what I said above: wanting to major in bio or econ and go into medicine is no sin if it is your passion! This passion is what makes you you, it's what makes you an individual, and that's what colleges are looking for!</p>

<p>"Last night I went to a meeting where I had the opportunity to speak with some GCs and a few admissions counselors. The GCs overwhelming said that what happened to him could happen and sometimes it is not out of the ordinary."</p>

<p>Remember that these are guidance counselors and admissions officers. What are they going to say to hopeful kids and parents who aspire to Harvard or Brown other than, "colleges will look at your application seriously even if your SAT is below 2000"? Reality is, unless you're a new immigrant, hold a patent, wrote a book, or know someone in the admissions office, they don't.</p>

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<p>errr sorry that was a long post, in the future should i split it up?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
So are you telling me that something fishy was going on when I got accepted to Stanford and Yale but was rejected by UCLA?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would point out that Stanford and Yale are not in the same category as Caltech; the only other school in the country comparable to Caltech is MIT.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Am I going to sue UCLA for discriminating against my race, or my name or the way I look, my accent or whatever that can be subject to discrimination?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No, but it's certainly unusual for a much more selective school to accept you while a lesser school does not. It's not definite proof of discrimination by itself, but it's definitely "fishy" as in, hmm, something's not quite right here.</p>

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<p>overall impression of this thread: it's making white people, especially white "moms", look bad</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Remember that these are guidance counselors and admissions officers. What are they going to say to hopeful kids and parents who aspire to Harvard or Brown other than, "colleges will look at your application seriously even if your SAT is below 2000"? Reality is, unless you're a new immigrant, hold a patent, wrote a book, or know someone in the admissions office, they don't.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I understand where you are coming from however, I did not attend the meeting as a parent, but in a professional capacity;)</p>

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<p>epiphany, perhaps you are too peeved to see the simplicity of my point? I don't know the merits of this case. I just resent when people consider the rejection of qualified applicants from the most competitve schools as proof of the applicant's narrowness. Often students with near perfect scores are condemned for being obedient robotic testtakers who will not break the mold. This guy has guts. So it is silly to suggest that the adcoms accurately discovered him to be an empty set of statistics. Not saying you did, of course.</p>

<p>On that same theme of proving uniqueness, playing piano or violin from an early age is a wondrous thing in itself and in my opinion superior to the altruism demanded of the ideal applicant, who hence becomes the actual conformist. Irks me the way the beauty availible from such devotion is summarily dismissed.</p>

<p>But then again, what doesn't irritate me?</p>

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<p>It is difficult for an admissions committee to accurately get a true picture of who a student is. They do so through somewhat subjective means - in addition to GPA and SAT scores, they will look at your extracurriculars, as well as essays and teacher recommendations, among other considerations. Jian Li is not an empty set of statistics. He is a good student, but also a good person. However, how can the admissions committee know that and take it into account? If his extracurriculars show that he was in FBLA and the math team but didn't win national awards, and he wasn't the President of any club or group - how are they supposed to know that he is a leader? I would argue that often parents who are new to the American college admissions process don't realize what a heavy emphasis colleges place on things other than statistics, and that this plays a large role in why many Asian parents encourage their children to play up objective measures in their application, resulting in their child writing an essay about how much orchestra meant to hir, as opposed to emphasizing their passion for spiders, etc. It could be this approach to the college admissions process that hurts many Asian students, by not playing up their individual strengths, and trying make their applications make it seem like they fit into a "good student" mold. This might have been a little politically incorrect to say, but I think it reflects some truth about MANY (certainly not all) cases.</p>

<p>That said, I <em>do</em> think affirmative action plays negatively against Asian students in the admissions process. I do think that if Jian were black, he likely would have gotten into every single one of those schools. I do not, however, think this is a bad thing.</p>

<p>Everyone so far seems to be looking at affirmative action from the individual's perspective - the angry parent or student who got rejected, or at least can imagine how angry they would have been if they'd been rejected. But let's, for a moment, look at it from the college's perspective:</p>

<p>A college wants to have a diverse freshman class. I don't think this is bad, or wrong. An oboe player has an advantage in the college admissions process because ze has something unique to bring into the freshman class. A black student has an advantage because hir lived experience as a black individual in society (regardless of class) brings in a fresh perspective for the freshman class. I would not want to attend a school that was 90% Asian. I would also not want to attend a school that was 90% white, or 90% black, or 90% homosexual, or 90% vegetarian, or 90% female, or 90% Jewish (despite being female, and vegetarian, and white, and Jewish, and not heterosexual - and this is my personal opinion - there are certainly individuals who want to attend an all-female or a historically-black or a largely-Jewish university, but I appreciate being surrounded by a capable AND diverse group of peers). The admissions committee is NOT looking at everything from your (the applicant's) perspective - the admissions committee is trying to build an intelligent freshman class full of leaders, thinkers, intellectuals, and fresh perspectives. This is legitimate. A lot of the top schools have great professors, but surely the idea behind a liberal arts college is that your education is built up from more than just your blatantly academic experience - it is a culmination of the experiences you go through as a result of attending this academic institution.</p>

<p>In addition, there is a great deal of privilege that many people take for granted. White privilege, upper middle class privilege, the privilege of having a good and solid high school education - and Jian Li got a fantastic high school education at a fairly highly-ranked New Jersey public school. Our high school teachers (like I previously mentioned, we went to the same high school) were amazing, and rival some of my college professors. The resources were amazing. The resources of high schools in nearby Newark, New Jersey did not even begin to compare. Jian and I had a lot of privilege coming in, and that privilege doesn't necessarily make us more qualified, just gives us easier access to higher education and other privileges - a university SHOULD take that into account when admitting its student body. A university should consider how well a student has performed given hir background and level of starting privilege.</p>

<p>For these reasons, I think that people need to step back and take a look at why affirmative action exists. There certainly should not be quotas, but you HAVE to take a holistic approach to the college class you are building.</p>

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<p>rorosen, I did none of the things you state in your recent post. I never discussed "the way adcoms accurately discovered him." So why did you address your post to me, when later in the post you admitted, "Not saying you did, of course." ?</p>

<p>Nor did I talk about "robotic test-takers." Nor did I slam anyone for playing a musical instrument. (Since we're a musical family ourselves, that would make no sense.) Nor did I "summarily dismiss beauty." Nor did I so much as speculate as to what his e.c.'s were, nor did I refer back to what nishkid said his e.c.'s were.</p>

<p>Nor did I <em>ever</em> say that "his rejection from the most competitive schools" was "proof of his narrowness." I discussed narrowness -- from him & from posters-- in the context of limiting qualifications for elites to qualifications that can be quantified. That was, after all, the basis of his so-called "complaint" to princeton.</p>

<p>I wasn't "peeved" previously. Now I am.</p>

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<p>because epiphany in #157 you addressed my words of #156 which I then tried to clarify were not really about the particular complaint against Princeton(or anything you said) but about the dismissing of rejected applicants as bland and how this could no longer apply in this case. Still seems simple, but if you want to feel peeved, feel free.</p>

<p>by the way when i said i'm not saying you did i meant i'm not saying you did.</p>

<p>but others do.</p>

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<p>I believe private colleges have every right and reason to be diverse in the way they wish. I do wonder how they come up with roughly the same number of each racial group each year. Do they openly keep track of how many asians, whites, blacks, hispanics....they accept along the way in the admissions process? Do they go back and add or subtract? Books like Gatekeepers didn't address this.</p>

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<p>Post 189 makes even less sense to me than 186, if that's possible.</p>

<p>No, I don't "want" to be peeved. I'm reacting very naturally to feeling angry when it is suggested that I've said things I didn't say, even though (yes!) others have.</p>

<p>Perhaps lostincode could elaborate on his/her racist remark.</p>

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<p>it wasnt suggested but i will surrender</p>

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<p>suze, from what I understand of admissions, the admissions officers usually tackle a pile of applications each. There are usually clear admits, maybes, and (sadly) clear rejects. The committee usually gets together and discusses the maybes, and I suspect that's where things like AA come into play.</p>

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<p>For comment:
"There is an overabundance of Asians applying to top colleges who are premed because their parents forced them to do this. Every year, I interview students as a Harvard alum interviewer, and every year, about a quarter of the students who apply to Harvard from my area are Asian even though Asians are about 1% of my area's population."</p>

<p>What this Harvard alum does not realize is:
Although "Asians are about 1% of my area's population", however these Asian's immigrant parents are selected from 1 billion people back in China. They carry the superior intellectual genes from the natual selection.
America is lucky to have them and have their offsprings like Li. </p>

<p>America is successful because of the human capital it attracts. Wealth is the by-product of the human capital.</p>

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<p>^^^ LOL I love this guy</p>

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<p>" thought it's basically been agreed that just because one 'looks really scholarly' doesn't mean that you can get into Yale or another comparable school. "</p>

<p>Of course, one would also have to show signs of being scholarly. I know that there are students who get into Harvard because they appear to be top level scholars --having the scores, grades and research background and demonstrated passion for research that indicate that they'll go on to be top universities' professors who become well known for making major contributions to their fields.</p>

<p>His getting into Yale doesn't mean that he was not a hermit. It's possible that he appeared to fill a slot for one of those students heading toward top scholarly professions. It's also possible that he had something in his application that struck the Yale admissions committee or interviewer differently than Princeton's. For instance as an alumni interviewer very familiar with high schools and ECs and other info in my area, I've caught applicants in lies and exaggerations in interviews that would have been difficult for others to notice.</p>

<p>" Also, it might be regrettable, but on an online discussion forum I don't think it's appropriate to bring in your personal experiences or what you've heard because there is no way for us to believe that they are true and they could easily have been made up to prove your point."</p>

<p>That's ridiculous. Of course, anyone could be lying, but that's not a reason for anyone to not describe their own personal experience. People can believe whatever they wish to.</p>

<p>"There is an overabundance of Asians applying to top colleges who are premed because their parents forced them to do this."</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but I find this a bit scary. Let's assume that what you say is true and that many Asian students that are interviewed say, "yeah, actually I don't want to do the major I wrote down it's just that my parents made me do it" </p>

<p>You may find it unlikely that students say such things, but you're just guessing. Meanwhile, I have the experience. It can be amazing what people will say in an interview situation when they're nervous and perhaps naive about the implications of what they're saying.</p>

<p>I usually ask applicants some variation of this question: "Given that Harvard gets an overabundance of excellent applicants and can only accept about one in ten, give me some reasons why Harvard should accept you."</p>

<p>One student answered, "I don't know. You tell me."</p>

<p>Back to the examples of Asians planning to major in medicine because of their parents: The very best applicant whom I ever interviewed was Asian who told me that he was going into medicine because his parents -- who were immigrants who'd faced a lot of hardship to come to the U.S. -- wanted him to. His way of pleasing his parents while also pursuing his own interests was to combine medicine with one of his interests, which I think was either psychology or art. Can't remember if he planned to be a plastic surgeon or psychiatrist. He got into Harvard with my strong recommendation. He also had a lot more going for him than planning to be premed and being in Mu Alpha Theta. </p>

<p>"Then why do the numbers of how many Asians there are on college campuses matter?"</p>

<p>Because for the top colleges that want to create well rounded student bodies, the number of students matters when it comes to countries represented, ethnicities represented, income levels, religions, political viewpoints, sexual orientation, proposed majors, athletic skills, etc. </p>

<p>The U.S. isn't Asia, Canada or Europe where college students are selected strictly by means of their scores on tests, and colleges don't offer extracurriculars. In the U.S., the college extracurriculars are deemed extremely important in terms of the overall education that students get as they learn to be productive citizens. Peer interaction also is very important, with college being the main place in U.S. society where people get to interact intimately with diverse groups of peers. Consequently, a big part of what makes the top U.S. colleges so respected in the U.S. is that their student bodies are not only smart, but also are diverse and represent a variety of talents, skills and interests.</p>

<p>Strong test takers who wish to be in colleges that select students strictly by their test taking skills are welcome to go to CalTech, Cooper Union or to many excellent colleges abroad with admission requirements that meet those students' desires.</p>

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<p>"On that same theme of proving uniqueness, playing piano or violin from an early age is a wondrous thing in itself and in my opinion superior to the altruism demanded of the ideal applicant, who hence becomes the actual conformist. Irks me the way the beauty availible from such devotion is summarily dismissed."</p>

<p>It's not dismissed. It's just that at top places like Harvard, the majority of students on campus have a background in music, and probably the majority of applicants do, too. Many have been playing classical piano or violin since they were children.</p>

<p>Harvard has hundreds of extracurricular activities that it needs interested and talented students to take part in. Consequently, students who have passionately pursued some of the less popular ECs in the applicant pool will be at an advantage.</p>

<p>In addition, the people who have pursued classical music are not going to stand out in a Harvard pool unless they are steller musicians who are already well regarded soloists -- like Yoyo Ma was when he applied. The student who has played violin for 12 years and is concert mistress at her high school orchestra or who has made it to All State isn't going to stand out in the admissions pool unless there's something very unusual about the student such as her being a homeless prodigy whose talent was recognized by a nationally renowned musician.</p>

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<p>in a way Jian does have a point. Not to be against any race or anything because i'm not. Asian Americans are always being discriminated more than any other race which is true. Everything in the newspapers always talk about whites, blacks, and Hispanics most of the time. Where are the Asians? And its true that we have been STEREOTYPED and so very hard to get into elite schools. And seriously if Jian is a well-rounded person not just academically but extracurricular he shoulda been let in. That's my personal opinion.</p>

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<p>NSM, I meant 'dismissed' by those discussing the topic here. It's part of my objection to the common description of smart people as obedient robots with no internal life that we cast when we look at their activity sheets and check off their attributes. I wasn't concerned with the eyes of the admissions judges. </p>

<p>That whole America's Next Top Model Student popularity contest part of the process gives me the ickies wherein flawed judges contribute to the spectacle whether they know it or not. </p>

<p>But I feel the peanut gallery can at least show some respect to those who are about to die in Ivy-tendrilled colosseums,..</p>

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<p>rorosen, you said it!
It is perfectly understandable why Asians may find it harder to get admitted to top schools (too many Asians applying there). However it is not right to look down upon hard-working, academically oriented Asian kids. It is pure jealousy to think less of them.
They work hard at their ECs, too. I am friends with some of them. I really salute their dedication. See how destructive so many of the other minority kids are, in comparison.
Another thing, if there weren't Asians willing to work hard, there would have been a further shortage of good engineers and doctors in our country.</p>