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Another thing, if there weren't Asians willing to work hard, there would have been a further shortage of good engineers and doctors in our country.
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Heaven forbid. :rolleyes: We need more teachers.</p>
<p>...and in many colors.</p>
<p>And be careful of positive stereotypes, as much as negative ones. No group has a "lock" on traits or features such as hard work, athleticism, academic promise, social graces, or musical talent/ability.</p>
<p>CollegeBound, you are fooling yourself if you think that non-Asians "look down upon" or "are jealous of" Asians because they are supposedly "hard-working" while other groups are not. Personally myself, I don't see "jealousy" from non-Asian parents or students over the issue of hard work. What I see is a resentment, an impatience with the assumption that "hard work" or even in some cases "harder" work should necessarily result in superior college admissions results, every time. </p>
<p>There is no question that colleges value hard work. And since it is clear that, yes, as a group, most Asian students are quite hard working, it is also clear that admissions statistics bear out the fact that selective colleges value hard work, given the percentages of Asians admitted relative to the student population applying. However, hard work is not the only valuable asset. Raw talent, and in variety, is especially valued. That is the kind that cannot be generated by hard work alone, though clearly hard work will develop & sustain the talent.</p>
<p>Colleges admit individuals, not groups. They admit them <em>as</em> individuals, not <em>as</em> groups. That is true now more than ever. So you don't get admitted by being a hard-working member of a hard-working group, per se. You get admitted by distinguishing yourself in your personal accomplishments, combined with effectively communicating that distinction within your application (and in interview, if that happens), combined with being fortunate enough not to live in an overrepresented region, major, gender, & ethnic identity for those applications, and often combined with standing <em>apart</em> from a group.</p>
<p>"Everything in the newspapers always talk about whites, blacks, and Hispanics most of the time. "</p>
<p>Asians are only 4% of the U.S. population. How much do you think that newspapers should talk about them?</p>
<p>Very lucid opinions from Northstarmom. I commend her.</p>
<p>I think the situation is complex, but I am surprised by the anger I find in the fourteen pages of posts I read. Many jump to conclusions and fail to keep an open mind. Those who quickly and angrily write that he's "suing Princeton" seem unable to understand the basic facts of the situation. </p>
<p>I can't judge the merits of Jian Li's complaint as I am not in full possession of the facts. However, there is no doubt in my mind under our legal system that he has the right to make such a complaint if he feels that his race is being discriminated against. That's the whole point of having our system. Maybe his complaint has merit, maybe not. But his complaint raises serious issues that should be considered. In our democratic system, I do believe he has a right to speak out.</p>
<p>Anyone who has read "The Price of Admission" by Daniel Golden, will quickly be aware that Ivy League admissions are often not based on merit, nor on assisting URMs. Golden makes a strong case that Asians have become the new "Jews" of this century. What surprises me is how quickly posters assume that Jian's complaint is a slam against affirmative action. Not necessarily so. I see the case posed by Jian as a perplexing problem that should be considered, investigated and debated calmly and fairly in a level headed way. </p>
<p>Maybe Jian didn't merit a spot at those five schools. But does anyone on this board doubt that a top notch Asian candidate (or even white for that matter) may have been turned away to give a spot to Harrison Frist (who got into Princeton with mediocre scores- and was convicted of drunk driving while there), President Bush's niece or numerous other legacies/development admits. </p>
<p>This is the heart of the issue. It's long been held in the United States that private clubs can discriminate and give preferences to their heart's content, for example, barring women from an exclusive golf club. But when you take taxpayer dollars, it's another matter. This is what I can't answer but I think it's an important question. How much government support is Princeton getting? What are its obligations to consider merit in a race blind way? How do we factor in other achievements, including that of being disadvantaged and succeeding academically? </p>
<p>I write as someone who is very much in favor of affirmative action. I should perhaps qualify that-- I believe that the United States has an obligation to redress the wrongs of slavery and generations of discrimination that affect and hinder African Americans. I am not always sure that affirmative action on the University level is the best way to go. Frankly at times it seems like the cheap way out. I might prefer to see the United States infuse massive funds into the education of disadvantaged minorities on the elementary and secondary level. If we had parity among schools- so that an inner city kid was going to just as good a school as the well heeled suburban kid- maybe we wouldn't need AA as much. We'd probably need even more than parity- for example- extra money to provide home tutoring for inner city kids who miss school due to extremely high rates of asthma in their neighborhoods, for example. Unfortunately, that will never happen. Our government has other things to spend money on, like war, and it's alot cheaper to have a system where universities take a kid with lower SAT scores and offers a few scholarships than to offer disadvantaged minorities an excellent education that remediates the obstacles they encounter. </p>
<p>I also believe that it's important to have a level playing field- this is crucial to the American Dream. The American dream is all about merit, all about hard work. I don't think this has to cut against disadvantaged minorities many of whom have worked their butts off against the odds to get to where they are. </p>
<p>I am slightly amused at those who quickly leap to defend the admissions systems of these elite universities. I personally know three people who gained admissions to extremely selective universities based on 1) a letter from a major donor 2) a seven figure donation by the applicants' parents 3) a family relationship. I am not saying the students are bad kids, but I can state from personal knowledge that had they posted their stats (academics, ECs) in the rate my chances section, y'all would have said, NO WAY does this kid get in. But they did. Is this a system we should defend to the point of saying, no, Jian Li can not file a complaint against it?</p>
<p>I also want to say to people (and I'm not asian)- let's not be so quick to dismiss the super smart numbers, driven Asian kid. I recently attended a science fair at which I saw a presentation by just such a kid. In broken English, and a monotone, this less than charismatic fellow presented a complex science project dense with mathematical calculations. Yes, it was a snoozer at points, but I gradually started making sense of what he was doing. After the presentations, during a conversation with a science teacher, I was informed that this kid, on his own, had come up with work that's very similar to recently published work by someone well known in the field. This kid's work was original and extremely impressive. Will the top schools recognize this come admissions time, or reject him because he doesn't have a bubbly personality? I would argue that this kid should be at a top research university... they probably could use him. </p>
<p>And that comes to a final point in this discrimination question, and comes back to the government funds issue. If a university, say Princeton, receives substantial public funds to support research facilities (sure hard science but also let's say all sciences, say, economics, or political science) that a brilliant scholar might need in order to make contributions to the field, does it not make sense to admit those who are best suited to use and maximize those government dollars? Does it matter if Princeton denies a top notch Asian kid and takes a Frist or a Bush with mediocre grades and scores? We need to look at the role of tax payer dollars in this. If Princeton lives by their legacy donations only, perhaps they are entitled to do what they want. </p>
<p>And overall I want to say, let's treat this as a respectful conversation. Let's talk without rancor. Let's consider all the possibilities. Let's not succumb to outrage. These are skills that every college bound reader of this post needs to cultivate.</p>
<p>"Asians are only 4% of the U.S. population. How much do you think that newspapers should talk about them?"</p>
<p>That doesn't sound so good. Aren't we supposed to recognize the exixtance of all minorities? Just because Asians are only 4% of the U.S. population does not mean that they do not contribute greatly to the U.S. society. If the U.S. wants to address minority issues and Asians only make up 4% of the population, which, certainly is a minor amount, then I believe they deserve to be mentioned in the minority catagory. Is the term "minority" only used for "majority of the minorities?"</p>
<p>It is hard to keep quiet when people deny the exixtance of discrimination in the college process (especially only becaue YOUR race is not the one being negtively affected.) Affirmative action "for minority" is in itself a type of racial discrimination. (first sacrificing White people, and now Asians.) As long as affirmative action exists, how can racism not? I can see why Hispanics or African Americans may not approve Jian Li's actions though. Taking away race factors would significantly reduce the chance of admission for SOME (whom are most insecure about the issue) blacks and latinos. </p>
<p>But let me ask another question, about "opportunity." Top colleges often look and favor kids from harsher environment, such as single-parent families or poorer families. This is very understandable because there are more things for students from these families. So is it fair to accept an African American applicant from a private school whose parents are the producers of some rap band, or to accept an Asian applicant from a immigrant family who lives in an one room apartment in China town with 2 other cousins and a single mom?</p>
<p>You're right, newspapers MUST be discriminating against Asians on purpose. Ever stopped to think that maybe Asians just don't make that much news? Not a bad thing, IMO.</p>
<p>Why is Jian Li alone in the fight???</p>
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</p>
<p>So why are asians not considered MINORITY?</p>
<p>Man, race is always such a controversial issue.</p>
<p>Ok so i'm an Asian and i don't agree with what Jian Li is doing. I think it's absolutely stupid to think that just because you received a 2400 and a 1% ranking, colleges HAVE TO accept you. Maybe Jian fits the quantitative criterion but numbers aren't everything in college admissions. Many Asians get accepted into top ivy league schools with lower stats than Jian so that must mean he is lacking something colleges are looking for.</p>
<p>BUT I also can't help but feel offended at what some people have written in this thread. It seems as though non-asians don't respect Asians for the amount of effort we put into academics. I remember reading in one of the earlier pages that there is no difference in getting a 2400 on the SAT and being a star athlete. That may be so but then why do people revere star atheletes so much while they look down on smart Asians as being geeks?</p>
<p>Another thing I want to point out is that many Asians speak English as a 2nd language or were born overseas. Therefore to get such good grades and academic achievements in English-speaking schools is really a big feat. I'm not saying that non-Asians should bow down to Asians at all but i just feel that there is a certain amount of bias against Asians in America.</p>
<p>Asians are deemed a "minority" but an "overrepresented minority"</p>
<p>Race based admissions is a never ending circle and once it begins there is no end - although Justice O'Connor a few years back I believe stated 25 more years of favoring blacks, hispanics, and native americans - MAY be a sufficient time frame</p>
<p>minority status is for adding diversity to a college. University of Pennsylvania has 40% non whites (minorities). many of them asian. so they are not a minority on the campus.</p>
<p>Asians are only 4% of the U.S. population. How much do you think that newspapers should talk about them?</p>
<p>Jews are about 1.4% of the population. How many times do they mentioned in the news?</p>
<p>Harvard is effectively the real target of the complaint (its not a lawsuit currently) as it's at the top of the heap in terms of the yield rate(i.e those accepted chose it over every other college) - however he's only directing it at Princeton because the numbers are more disfavorable to Princeton - and the Dept of Education -Office for Civil Right will (in theory) be looking at the broader question of Asians relative to the elites and their admissions policies</p>
<p>If for example he were to file a tort (damages) lawsuit - which I believe is remote - he would have a hard time proving that an acceptance at Yale over Princeton damaged him in any measurable way - for the simple reason most people will chose Yale over Princeton, unless they were denied admission to some specialized Princeton program which was deemed unique</p>
<p>In the case of Harvard, at least in theory, he could arguably prove that going to Yale relative to Harvard did produce some kind of 'damage" - although this in unlikely in any case and I believe he merely wants the issue put on the table via his administrative complaint</p>
<p>Westchestermom, great post.</p>
<p>Westchestermom,</p>
<p>That was a great post. Thank you.</p>
<p>"Asians are only 4% of the U.S. population. How much do you think that newspapers should talk about them?</p>
<p>Jews are about 1.4% of the population. How many times do they mentioned in the news?"</p>
<p>Who goes around measuring these things? Really -- who looks at articles to see if they are about Asians or Jews?</p>
<p>For the person who complained that Asians aren't being covered enough: What is not being covered about Asians that you think should be covered? What stories are being missed in your opinion?</p>
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<p>And Asians within a strong middle class background (as opposed to a recent impoverished immigrant from Vietnam, Cambodia, etc.) enjoy rich elementary & secondary education options, overall, compared to African Americans, overall. </p>
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<p>Actually African Americans who enter top universities with help of racial preference are also of middle and upper class background.</p>
<p>"For the person who complained that Asians aren't being covered enough: What is not being covered about Asians that you think should be covered? What stories are being missed in your opinion?"</p>
<p>What stories DO you think Asians are being covered in, over than the stereotypical 2400 SAT, computer nerds, Chinatown restaurants????</p>
<p>Northstarmom, I can't but feel you have a VERY STRONG stereotype AND prejudice against Asians based on your extreme lack of knowledge about the race and your superficial generalization of ALL Asians.</p>
<p>I feel deeply offended by the way you post your opinions against Asians, as if we were just a "group" of small eyed and black-haired people who stay home and read books. In fact, Asians ARE ALL DIFFERENT. We come from totally different nations with MANY MANY different beliefs. Some of these beliefs even pose strains within the "Asian race" as you call it. It's like any other race. Just becasue African Americans all LOOK black doesn't mean they don't have different backgrounds that make them unique. Is it fair to say that all African Americans are well-represented by what we see on TV? like in all the rap videos and reality shows??????????? I hope not, for I do not want to base my judgement of them without even knowing some of them. I hope to not judge people at all.</p>
<p>I can't see anything in Northstarmom's posts that implies she holds such a narrow view of Asians. I think people are letting themselves get carried away by their emotions here...</p>