Asian student filing complaint against Princeton for discrimination-WSJ article

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well i would consider you racist if the only factor you didn't support was race. you might as well be saying that you don't want to go to school with certain ethnicities.

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<p>Supporters of the status quo, that is, supporters of affirmative action, love to argue that racists are the ones who don't consider race. I have always found this to be beyond comical.</p>

<p>Under this logic, the first Ku Klux Klan was not racist because it considered race. Had it not considered race, then it would have been racist. Does that make sense? Of course not. Then again, most of the stuff that the status quo spews out really doesn't make sense. Who else would argue that assigning students to schools based on a binary racial classification (e.g. black or non-black) promoted diversity? Who else would argue that race isn't that big of a factor in admissions, but removing it leads to numbers-only, implying that the essay, extracurriculars, and recommendations are also removed?</p>

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well that's their problem. just because a couple of Asian people are too shy to say how they really feel doesn't mean we should get rid of Civil Rights Act of 1964.

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My previouse response is to yours

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courage? i think it took nerve for him to file it... talk about some one not being satisfied with the opportunities given to them. for some one with his background, i would say that he is acting disgracefully. i really hate to see when people, including myself, fail to see how much worse things can be...

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<p>I maintain that from Lis cultural background, it takes tremondous courage for him to file the complain. Kudo to his parents to raise a such a standup kid!</p>

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i'm guessing that we have all come the conclusion the IsleBoy is right? yay for tolerance and understanding!

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<p>I think you meant to say, "i'm guessing that we have all come the conclusion the IsleBoy is wrong? yay for tolerance and understanding!"</p>

<p>He's been calling opponents of racial preferences "the status quo" for quite some time without realizing that racial preferences is the status quo.</p>

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Supporters of the status quo, that is, supporters of affirmative action, love to argue that racists are the ones who don't consider race. I have always found this to be beyond comical.

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i don't think it'd be so funny if you understood it makes sense for a racist to be in favor of eliminating Affirmative Action (and all of the Civil Rights Acts.)</p>

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Under this logic, the first Ku Klux Klan was not racist because it considered race. Had it not considered race, then it would have been racist. Does that make sense? Of course not. Then again, most of the stuff that the status quo spews out really doesn't make sense. Who else would argue that assigning students to schools based on a binary racial classification (e.g. black or non-black) promoted diversity? Who else would argue that race isn't that big of a factor in admissions, but removing it leads to numbers-only, implying that the essay, extracurriculars, and recommendations are also removed?

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worst analogy in CC history... ever.</p>

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He's been calling opponents of racial preferences "the status quo" for quite some time without realizing that racial preferences is the status quo.

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lol! i thought you were starting to see that Isleboy is right because you're not even trying to dispute his arguments. instead you are just pointing out that he may have used a word incorrectly.worst analogy in CC history... ever.</p>

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He's been calling opponents of racial preferences "the status quo" for quite some time without realizing that racial preferences is the status quo.

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lol! i thought you were starting to see that Isleboy is right because you're not even trying to dispute his arguments. instead you are just pointing out that he may have used a word incorrectly.</p>

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He's been calling opponents of racial preferences "the status quo" for quite some time without realizing that racial preferences is the status quo.

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<p>The status quo in society is the norm created by the majority. And, last time I checked, many state schools use test scores and grades as a reason to admit a candidate. Guess who has a larger enrollment, public schools or private ones? </p>

<p>The status quo is still, at least for the majority of schools, a college that uses merit aid (dependent on test scores, which can be argued to be culturally and socioeconomically biased) to choose from the predominantly, non-URM middle class applicants that apply.</p>

<p>The status quo that I refer to is one where those with political power (affluent, non-URM males) at the state, local and federal levels of government who attempt to influence college admissions policies to not take ethnicity and race into consideration because it weakens their base. Hence, it is those highly selective colleges that tend to practice holistic admissions (with respect to ethnicity/race) that are the exception rather than the rule--because they can consider other factors, while some state and less selective schools cannot.</p>

<p>I realize how I'm using the phrase, I just figured I needed to reiterate the context. And, of course, different people will parse it in other ways.</p>

<p>New: I was wondering when he would get around to cherry picking instead of using counter-arguments. Great debate tactic, though.</p>

<p>IsleBoy -- I can't upload the link in its entirety, but the citation is here (albeit w/horrible formatting), in case any of you can make use of this to access a copy somewhere --</p>

<p>Eisenberg, Theodore, 1999. An Important Portrait of Affirmative Action [Review Article], American Law and Economics Review,
Oxford University Press, vol. 1(1-2), pages 471-80, Fall.</p>

<p>In a bit of a hurry now, but I'll try to put up a summary sometime. It only discusses the black community, looking at a database from 28 top schools over some 40 years.</p>

<p>Newjack: At the top schools, where all test grades and GPAs are clumped closely together, extracurricular involvement is indeed a good indicator of performance at college. I'm talking the sort of ECs that require significant time commitment and talent/charisma/what have you: a research achievement, a state or national level achievement in sport or music, management of a large volunteer effort, and so on. The organizational, discipline, concentration etc. skills one gets from these things is likely MORE useful at top schools than a good SAT score (which is comparatively much easier to achieve, anyway.) </p>

<p>On the other hand, I challenge you to find any sort of hard data that proves that being a URM admit (or male/female depending on school, or whatever) is correlated with better performance at college. I believe most of the evidence is to the contrary. In fact, that paper I cited above also points out that black matriculants in the study graduated, on average, in the bottom 23rd percentile of their class. </p>

<p>In response to your latest post... I'm afraid I'm simply too dense to unravel what you (and other posters on this thread) mean when you dismiss what seems like intelligent comments to me as "worst analogies ever," "stupidest arguments ever," and the like. Perhaps you could spell everything out very explicitly for me?</p>

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Who else would argue that race isn't that big of a factor in admissions, but removing it leads to numbers-only, implying that the essay, extracurriculars, and recommendations are also removed?

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<p>That would be you...again a holistic admissions process that considers more information is preferable to one that does not consider the ramifications of ethnicity or race (and/or socioeconomic status) throughout the first 17+ years of life. </p>

<p>BTW, you set up the false dichotomy, by taking considerations of ethnicity/race (and/or socioeconomics) off the table while leaving all other characteristics in play.</p>

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At the top schools, where all test grades and GPAs are clumped closely together, extracurricular involvement is indeed a good indicator of performance at college. I'm talking the sort of ECs that require significant time commitment and talent/charisma/what have you: a research achievement, a state or national level achievement in sport or music, management of a large volunteer effort, and so on. The organizational, discipline, concentration etc. skills one gets from these things is likely MORE useful at top schools than a good SAT score (which is comparatively much easier to achieve, anyway.)

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my argument is about being qualified; not necessarily being prepared (i.e. having time management skills, communication skills etc.).</p>

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On the other hand, I challenge you to find any sort of hard data that proves that being a URM admit (or male/female depending on school, or whatever) is correlated with better performance at college. I believe most of the evidence is to the contrary. In fact, that paper I cited above also points out that black matriculants in the study graduated, on average, in the bottom 23rd percentile of their class.

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you and i both know that class ranking hardly matters when you graduate from college. just curious, what schools are included in this study?</p>

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In response to your latest post... I'm afraid I'm simply too dense to unravel what you (and other posters on this thread) mean when you dismiss what seems like intelligent comments to me as "worst analogies ever," "stupidest arguments ever," and the like. Perhaps you could spell everything out very explicitly for me?

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there is no point in responding in depth to stupid analogies since they don't add anything meaningful to the discussion. </p>

<p>part of it is also because i'm VERY tired of having to respond to AA threads...</p>

<p>Thanks Ethyrial for the info. I was afraid that would be the case with respect to URMs covered.</p>

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i'm VERY tired of having to respond to AA threads...

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<p>I agree whole heartedly.</p>

<p>This AA thread isn't even a good one.</p>

<p>But Newjack, why, they don't seem like stupid analogies to me! Care to enlighten me?</p>

<p>I also fail to understand the distinction between the best qualified and best prepared applicant... And why shouldn't class rank matter when one graduates from college? Meeting cutoff GPAs certainly matters for graduate school, med, law, banking, etc. So what do you propose as a metric for what "matters"? </p>

<p>I'm not sure which schools are included in the study actually... I think there are 5 of the top 13 schools at the time among the 28 that the authors had access to. Most of the schools were within the top .. 60? or so.</p>

<p>Friendly reminder to everyone here: if any of you are tired of responding to AA threads, no one is forcing you to do so :)</p>

<p>Ethyrial: True. But, then the fear is that it would be a one sided argument, that would favor those who already have power in general. And, I've been pretty good about staying out of it, except for when it seems that people take it for granted that it's okay to assert that race-blind admissions would somehow be a better way to be fair to ALL applicants. I disagree for obvious philosophical, social, and economic reasons--as made clear in my posts.</p>

<p>And, sometimes it can be stimulating, and at other times not so much.</p>

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This AA thread isn't even a good one.

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lol! that's so true!</p>

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But Newjack, why, they don't seem like stupid analogies to me! Care to enlighten me?

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well that's because you want to agree with them as much as i want to disagree with them.</p>

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Under this logic, the first Ku Klux Klan was not racist because it considered race. Had it not considered race, then it would have been racist. Does that make sense? Of course not.

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trying to equate the KKK with Affirmative Action is just stupid. nothing productive will result from him saying this...</p>

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I also fail to understand the distinction between the best qualified and best prepared applicant...?

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where are you getting the "best" from? i am strictly talking about qualified versus unqualified. anyways, it's definitely possible for some one to be qualified for a position but prepared for it. i'm pretty sure that most of the kids who commited suicide at MIT since the 1990 were qualified to go there but, obviously, were not prepared for the intense environment.</p>

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Friendly reminder to everyone here: if any of you are tired of responding to AA threads, no one is forcing you to do so

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there are too many people on here who are anti-Affirmative Action yet they do not know what purpose Affirmative Action serves today. if it weren't for posters like myself, Isleboy, and Tyler09, these people could very likely go through out life without having their perspective challenged.</p>

<p>Look at this thread:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/473526-if-you-got-into-uc-davis-post-stats-here.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/473526-if-you-got-into-uc-davis-post-stats-here.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Very interesting.</p>

<p>IsleBoy: One post from an anonymous forum user is worth less than anecdotal evidence... I only skimmed the rest of the thread, so if there was something else I missed, please do highlight it for me.</p>

<p>Tyler and Newjack: Totally off-topic, but what do you guys define as a "good" AA thread?</p>

<p>Also afraid I don't understand your distinction between "qualification" and "preparation" still. Are you trying to say that ECs and essays are not at all important, since by your definition they are not relevant indicators of anything that matters? If so, do you support a completely number-based system? Or since ECs don't matter but race does, what about a system that looks only at test-score numbers and then adjusts by -50 points for Asian students and +100 points for black students? </p>

<p>Anyway while we're on the topic of complaining about "bad threads", just a couple notes about the problems I have with discussing AA on these forums. Like IsleBoy I just pop in every so often because I have a certain philosophical disagreement that I am interested in examining, and at times it is stimulating to hear well-thought arguments from the other side. There are even posters I ought to thank for broadening my view somewhat, believe it or not. But it is very difficult to engage in honest debate when posters rely upon disingenuous tactics such as deliberately obfuscating a point (see the other recent AA thread), posting pointless one-liners about how "myopic" the other side is, or dismissing arguments offhand as "too stupid" to be considered. This sort of response, frankly, does not broaden anyone's "perspective."</p>

<p>I think, after reading through all these posts, that most people who aren't already violently dedicated to one side would conclude that the subject's irreconcilable. </p>

<p>The reason for this debate being irreconcilable, as I see it, is that the two camps are placing importance on two completely different things.<br>
Those who oppose affirmative action frequently bring up notions of unfair standards (implied racism, often) and the decline in academic quality from many AA applicants. As they see it, colleges should try to be the best they can realistically be.</p>

<p>Those who support AA, from what I've seen, rely on two main arguments. They argue, first, that affirmative action must be institutionalized in order to combat injustices--implicit or otherwise--in modern society. The second main argument that I've seen says that diversity is an important part of a student's experience, and that AA actually makes college more rewarding for all students.</p>

<p>A third pro-AA argument that is, for some reason, rarely brought up here, says that AA should be institutionalized because it helps maximize the benefits that students get from college. A study done by a fairly prominent economist at Princeton found that college choices didn't matter much for most people in terms of post-graduation incomes. That is, a highly motivated student accepted to both Harvard and UMich would earn just as much after graduating from Michigan as he/she would from graduating from Harvard. This held true for all but those in the lowest 1/4th income bracket, and for those students, attending a prestigious university helped immensely. A similar study done by a group of researchers at UC Berkeley concluded likewise, but focused instead on URMs as opposed to low-income students. So when colleges admit URMs, they're improving those individuals' future prospects significantly more than if they admitted more qualified candidates.</p>

<p>But there's the problem. Essentially this debate boils down to a question about the roles of colleges. Are they, as anti-AA constituents would argue, a place for the most intelligent students to gather and share ideas? Or, as those supporting AA would argue, should colleges serve as institutions to assist the community? In probably over 90% of the applications that colleges consider, there's no conflict between the two, but when we talk about AA, it seems that there's a certain zero-sum game going on here.</p>

<p>Enter own thoughts. As a supporter of AA, however, I think--at least at the undergraduate level--that the social benefits of AA outweigh the academic benefits of abolishing it. That's largely because top academic quality isn't really the most important thing at the undergraduate level. First of all, when we talk about AA admits to top colleges, there's never a hugely excessive disparity between them and regular students. The difference between AA admits and regular admits isn't, for example, the difference between IMO medalists and students getting 450s on the math portion of the SAT. It's always much more subtle, and results in little to no decline in the quality of the student body. Secondly, the academic strength of your peers matters much much less at the undergraduate level. Affirmative action isn't the only thing bringing down the average talent in undergraduate classes. Think, for example, about distribution requirements at many universities. Humanities majors in intense science classes usually don't perform as well as their math/science counterparts. The reverse usually holds true as well, but we rarely see complaints about engineers "bringing down" comparative literature classes. Also, students rarely cooperate significantly with their peers on research or major projects as undergraduates (this changes at the graduate level, obviously, and is one of the major reasons why supporting AA in graduate school admissions is so much harder), and it's for this reason that the quality of your peers doesn't matter quite as much. That is, most work at the undergraduate level consists of interactions between professor and student, not student-student (problem set study sessions don't count). </p>

<p>Unlike anti-AA posters then, I view the social "good" gained from AA as more important than the academic good that is gained from admitting only the top students. I just don't think that the intellectual benefits of abolishing AA are worth the loss to those who would have gained a lot from attending top colleges.</p>

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And, last time I checked, many state schools use test scores and grades as a reason to admit a candidate.</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>The status quo is still, at least for the majority of schools, a college that uses merit aid (dependent on test scores, which can be argued to be culturally and socioeconomically biased) to choose from the predominantly, non-URM middle class applicants that apply.</p>

<p>The status quo that I refer to is one where those with political power (affluent, non-URM males) at the state, local and federal levels of government who attempt to influence college admissions policies to not take ethnicity and race into consideration because it weakens their base.

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<p>Is a reason the same as only reason? No. You have made this mistake several times already. </p>

<p>Three of the four universities I applied to are state schools. All required that I list my extracurriculars, provide recommendations, and write essays.</p>

<p>Merit aid and affirmative action are not mutually exclusive. In many cases, they co-exist. You are simply refusing to admit that most states practice affirmative action. As of March 2008, only California, Washington, and Michigan have banned state preferential treatment via initiative. Thus, a majority of states practice affirmative action in the form of preferential treatment. That is the status quo, and that is what you support. I support the actions of people like Mr. Ward Connerly, who are working to fight the status quo.</p>

<p>I finally understand your definition of status quo. You're saying that the current state of affairs consists of people fighting against the current state of affairs. If that makes you happy, so be it.</p>

<p>So, Newjack88 says that he considers anyone who does not support the consideration of race a racist ("well i would consider you racist if the only factor you didn't support was race.") No exceptions. Well, that would imply that non-racists support the consideration of race.</p>

<p>Newjack88's statement can be reworded in an "if-then" construction.</p>

<p>"If A does not support the consideration of race, then A is racist." (1)</p>

<p>The contrapositive gives the equivalent statement, "If A is not racist, then A does support the consideration of race."</p>

<p>But, we also know that, "If A is racist, then A does support the consideration of race." All racists must consider race or else they would not be racists.</p>

<p>The contrapositive of that statement is, "If A does not support the consideration of race, then A is not racist." (4)</p>

<p>We have a contradiction. Either statement 1 is not true or statement 4 is not true. I think statement 1 is not true, but I'm not smart enough to convince anyone who doesn't already see the inanity of claiming that racists are those who refuse to consider race.</p>

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Totally off-topic, but what do you guys define as a "good" AA thread?

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One where we actually stay on topic...</p>

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Also afraid I don't understand your distinction between "qualification" and "preparation" still. Are you trying to say that ECs and essays are not at all important, since by your definition they are not relevant indicators of anything that matters? If so, do you support a completely number-based system? Or since ECs don't matter but race does, what about a system that looks only at test-score numbers and then adjusts by -50 points for Asian students and +100 points for black students?

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Ok, this is exactly why I hate this Affirmative Action thread. Too many people were debating different points and now it seems as though people cannot even tell what others are arguing about...</p>

<p>Anyways, in terms of college admissions, there definitely is a distinction between those who are qualified and those who are both qualified and prepared. I think that the MIT students who committed suicide because they were unable to handle the stress highlight that fact.</p>

<p>No, I am not saying that colleges should consider only relevent things; I am, and always, have been arguing for the holistic admissions approach. The reason why I brought up the whole "ECs and essays" being irrelevant argument is because others in this thread have been arguing that colleges should not consider race because race is irrelevant. Lastly, I am not saying that ECs don't matter but race does; had you been following the exchange from the beginning you would see that I am basically arguing that race is no more relevant or irrelevant than essays and ECs.</p>

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Three of the four universities I applied to are state schools. All required that I list my extracurriculars, provide recommendations, and write essays.

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Those are probably higher end state schools then. Most state schools do not ask for recommendations, essays, or ECs; if they do it's used to decide merit-based aid.</p>

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So, Newjack88 says that he considers anyone who does not support the consideration of race a racist ("well i would consider you racist if the only factor you didn't support was race.") No exceptions. Well, that would imply that non-racists support the consideration of race.

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Let's keep it in context: most, if not all, racist/prejudiced people in the United States would be against Affirmative Action. In my opinion, people who are anti-AA suggest their prejudices whenever they focus entirely on its application to African Americans and Hispanics. These people conviniently forget that Affirmative Action has made it seeking diversity, of all types (gender, geographic, etc.), a legitimate goal of the state. I think that in many cases the reason why these people conviniently forget about that is because they are biased against African Americans and Hispanics.</p>