Asians and College Prestige.

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America is telling US, the Chinese and Korean Americans of society, that we ARE NOT accepted unless we have Ivy League degrees and are raking in big bucks as doctors or scientists.

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<p>America is telling you no such thing. I'm really sorry all of these Asian parents feel this way and give this guilt trip to their kids, but America is not telling you you are not acceptable unless you have Ivy League degrees. Another newsflash: Most of America does not overly value Ivy League or similar elite school degrees in the first place.</p>

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First of, of all the Asian groups, Chinese and Koreans are the most obsessed with getting into a top brand name university. The mantra in Chinese and Korean communities is and continues to be "You go to Harvard, or you become homeless." Chinese and Koreans are the most obsessed with wanting to attend elite institutions.

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<p>They can't look around and see that it's clearly not true that not having a Harvard degree does not equal homelessness? How bright are these parents if they can't figure that out?</p>

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You know how most Americans snicker at someone who is dressed head to toe in Louis Vuitton or another designer, because the person thinks that she is showing exquisite "taste" when indeed she's just a designer-whore with no breeding?

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<p>I dress in a mix Boss, Zegna, Armani, Gucci, and Versace: is that still socially acceptable? I told my mom I really need a few good pair of jeans, but she scoffed at me =)</p>

<p>A more amusing phenomenon is to see an Asian person step out of a S550 Mercedes Benz unkempt, in a wifebeater, boxer shorts, and flip-flops.</p>

<p>i think most asian parents that want their kids to goto harvard are those who never went to college, or a good one, same is true for all parents.</p>

<p>You gotta understand where some people are comming from. Their parents worked their butt off to get to America, only the students top of their class have a chance to come here. They want their children to succeed, so it's already part of their mindset. And they don't want to let their parents down.</p>

<p>We UNDERSTAND it intellectually. It's not that hard to understand. They came from a culture in which test scores = college = ticket to success in life and so they assume America is the same way. With all of their "smarts," they refuse to open their eyes and see that in America, while an elite university education is certainly a life advantage, the spoils in America go to those who work hard, not just merely those few who achieve an Ivy education. YK, it's pretty evident if you go to any nice suburb of any city in America that plenty of very successful people come from a state flagship or "lesser" school. It's not my problem that certain groups refuse to open their eyes to the reality that they now live in. It would be like me going to Asia and telling my kids to focus on EC's as their tickets to getting into the best colleges in Asia. Understandable, since that's my cultural mindset ... but also stupid, if I can't open my eyes to the new reality that I'm in.</p>

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Most of America does not overly value Ivy League or similar elite school degrees in the first place.

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<p>Isn’t this “most of America” the same “most of America” that doesn’t</a> know who the first Republican president was and can’t</a> identify the Declaration of Independence’s opening words? Should we really let this “most of America” be the final arbiter in everything?</p>

<p>Are you correct that most of America doesn’t really care? Yes. But, it all depends. Considering how deadly the “elite” label can be during election season, I think a Harvard degree isn’t all that valuable in the eyes of “most of America.” But, an employer who’s an alum of Harvard might look more favorably on a prospective employee who is also an alum of Harvard, no?</p>

<p>Yesterday, 03:00 PM #433 by IamYourFather:</p>

<p>"As a Chinese American and someone who has researched extensively the whole model minority myth" </p>

<p>There is a disconnect between this "extensive research" prefatory statement, and the posts that follow. What I get is not research, but your conclusions about Chinese/Korean students -- particularly the religio-social underpinnings of the super-Asian whiz kid student.</p>

<p>I enjoyed reading your conclusions. I wonder about the "research" you mention. Is there anything notable that you want to mention?</p>

<p>I'm sure that the reason Michelle Kwan transferred to U. of Denver is that almost all of the elite Olympic hopefuls train in Colorado because of the supurb facilities, coaches and high altidtude exposure.</p>

<p>"Are you correct that most of America doesn’t really care? Yes. But, it all depends. Considering how deadly the “elite” label can be during election season, I think a Harvard degree isn’t all that valuable in the eyes of “most of America.” But, an employer who’s an alum of Harvard might look more favorably on a prospective employee who is also an alum of Harvard, no?"</p>

<p>Well, sure. Just like the employer who's an alum of Florida State might look more favorably on the prospective employee who is also an alum of Florida State. No different, really. </p>

<p>I think people on CC vastly overestimate the % of employers and the "real world" who are elite-school grads, and vastly underestimate the fact that the majority of employers in this country aren't from an elite school at all, and aren't all that impressed with it beyond the "huh, he / she must be smart to have gone there." Some people on here seem unaware that there are actually businesses and "good jobs" outside of NYC / the Northeast ... and i-banking is about financing the people who come up with new ideas, but aren't the truly smart people the ones who come up with the new ideas in the first place? </p>

<p>Look, I'm an elite school (top 20) grad myself. I applied and was accepted to 3 top 20's (including an Ivy) and a school that is right below (G-town), chose one of the top 20's, am extremely glad I went, wouldn't have gone any other way, it was a wonderful experience, and I think there is high value to an elite education on its own merits. But for the sole purposes of impressing the neighbors? making more money? trying to impress the vast majority of employers? I don't think those are the reasons. The experience of being with bright young minds is the point, not the $$$ that follow. It's dispiriting to think that the value of a degree or the rating of a school's merit is perverted into "how much money will it make me at the back end."</p>

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Isn’t this “most of America” the same “most of America” that doesn’t know who the first Republican president was and can’t identify the Declaration of Independence’s opening words? Should we really let this “most of America” be the final arbiter in everything?

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<p>You're absolutely right that most Americans aren't "educated" in the sense that you mention. So, how can IAmYourFather conclude that the same American populate who can't identify the DOI's opening words, name one member on the Supreme Court, etc. are "insisting" that Asians have to be big-money Ivy-League types to be successful?</p>

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So, how can IAmYourFather conclude that the same American populate who can't identify the DOI's opening words, name one member on the Supreme Court, etc. are "insisting" that Asians have to be big-money Ivy-League types to be successful?

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<p>Pizzagirl, check out some of these articles by leading American magazines that promote the image of East Asians as a model minority....</p>

<p>The</a> New Whiz Kids - TIME
"Those Asian American Whiz kids"</p>

<p><a href="http://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/opinion/14kristof.html?_r=1&oref=slogin%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/opinion/14kristof.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&lt;/a>
"The Model Students" </p>

<p>Articles like these are propaganda in nature. They feed into the idea that if you're Asian, and want to be accepted by AMERICA, you can only do so by being an big money Ivy League educated overachiever. This is further compounded by Asian parents who constantly remind us that we're a "minority" and that it's a White man's world. They would tell us that to be accepted by the white man, you have to be an Ivy League educated doctor or engineer. </p>

<p>In many ways, our very own parents (on top of the media) exploit our insecurities and use this whole guilt factor that if we do not go to Harvard and become doctors, we are a disgrace. They would tell us "Why can't you be like Mr. Chang's son or Ms. Kim's daughter who's valedictorian of high school and earned a full scholarship to MIT, on top of being a piano playing virtuoso."</p>

<p>Pizzagirl, you have to be Chinese/Korean to really understand what's it like to have the burden to live up to the model minority image. To use a metaphor, imagine you're a teenage girl who's constantly bombarded with images of 90-lb supermodels gracing every page of teenage magazines, and seen everywhere in the media. They send this subliminal message that if you want to be "sexy" and accepted by society, you have to weigh 90-lb and look absolutely pretty. This sort of media propaganda leads women to commit anorexia. </p>

<p>I know it's a poor and somewhat extreme analogy, but hopefully you'll understand what I have to say. The media -- and our very own parents -- are taking away our individuality and telling us to CONFORM TO THE MODEL MINORITY STEREOTYPE (the nice gifted overachieving Chinese boy who will go to MIT and Harvard medical school to be a doctor). </p>

<p>You can call me a sad story, a sad morality tale, or whatever. But I feel that I do have valid points.</p>

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There is a disconnect between this "extensive research" prefatory statement, and the posts that follow. What I get is not research, but your conclusions about Chinese/Korean students -- particularly the religio-social underpinnings of the super-Asian whiz kid student.</p>

<p>I enjoyed reading your conclusions. I wonder about the "research" you mention. Is there anything notable that you want to mention?

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<p>Here's a great article about The Dark Side of the Asian American Model Student.<br>
The</a> Dark Side of the Asian American 'Model Student' - NAM</p>

<p>Push</a> to achieve tied to suicide in Asian-American women - CNN.com
"Push to Achieve tied to suicide in Asian women."</p>

<p>[url=<a href="http://www.asian-nation.org/headlines/index.php?s=materialistic%5DAsian-Nation"&gt;http://www.asian-nation.org/headlines/index.php?s=materialistic]Asian-Nation&lt;/a> : Asian American History, Demographics, & Issues :: APA News Blog<a href="Some%20great%20articles%20here">/url</a>
"Asian American students are more likely to be concerned about status and reputation than other groups [refering to other ethnic groups]. In other words, perhaps Asian students are more vain and preoccupied with symbols of materialistic success, such as the school they attended."</p>

<p>Well, as someone not asian from the outside looking in...</p>

<p>I have noticed the societal pressures Asians are under. In fact my friends, and myself included, are literally dumbfounded when we see an asian who is bad at math. The sad thing is Asians are often divided into two categories, Asians, who have the 4.0, perfect SAT, dominate in math, play tennis and piano or violin, and dumb Asians, who are really just normal people who dont fit the stereotype.</p>

<p>I've watched as throughout school my Asian peers have either chosen to work themselves to death the live up to the expectation, or to completely not try at all so that they dont risk failure. </p>

<p>Asians and African Americans are very much in similar situations, just in reverse. However, this Asian stereotype is often beneficial to their success, despite the drawbacks.</p>

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Well, as someone not asian from the outside looking in...</p>

<p>I have noticed the societal pressures Asians are under. In fact my friends, and myself included, are literally dumbfounded when we see an asian who is bad at math. The sad thing is Asians are often divided into two categories, Asians, who have the 4.0, perfect SAT, dominate in math, play tennis and piano or violin, and dumb Asians, who are really just normal people who dont fit the stereotype.</p>

<p>I've watched as throughout school my Asian peers have either chosen to work themselves to death the live up to the expectation, or to completely not try at all so that they dont risk failure. </p>

<p>Asians and African Americans are very much in similar situations, just in reverse. However, this Asian stereotype is often beneficial to their success, despite the drawbacks.

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<p>Thanks for sharing your thoughts Tyler.</p>

<p>It made me think that I was having this sort of discussion at a Black Interest forum. One Black person (a PhD in engineering) was saying that Blacks could do great if they could be just like Asians. The Black PhD was praising endlessly about how Asians are just so perfect in everything and are absolutely flawless. he would give a laundry list of how Asians are just perfect: they're intelligent, well-educated, have degrees from the most elite universities, and are very wealthy. He says that if Blacks are to survive in society, they should embrace Chinese/Korean values.</p>

<p>I commented on how superficially, East Asians are seen as a model minority, but that despite the image of Asians as the super-smart Ivy League overachiever, we Asians have our share of problems. I pointed to the not just the parental expectations, but also the societal pressures of living up to the overachieving model minority image because that's the only way we're accepted in society. Society only accepts us if we're intellectually and academically superior -- we don't have a right to be ourselves because we must conform to the overachieving model minority expectations that society places on us.</p>

<p>I also talked about some of the problems Asians have face, particularly with the rise of mental health problems, depression, suicide attempts, etc. That Black PhD person then completely lashed out at me. He was yelling at me, accusing me of being patronizing. He says how pathetic I am that I worry about the mental health problems of Chinese people. He says that I'm utterly pathetic and that it's my own damn fault that I couldn't handle pressure from my parents and society and that he says that I don't deserve sympathy for not living up to the model minority.</p>

<p>The Black person says that I should be grateful if the only problems I face in life are trying to overachieve to live up to the model minority stereotype. The Black PhD talks about how he lived in poverty most of his life and he says trying surviving when you're "living in the ghettos" and you have family members who are drug users. He tells me that Blacks have all these problems and he says that I have some nerve to whine about having to live up to societal and parental expectations of the Asian overachiever...</p>

<p>The Black PhD says that he "wishes" he would have the pressure of living up to high expectations. Because he points out that sometimes people having high expectations of you gives you an incentive to work hard. HE says that many Asians have the incentive to work hard because society expects them to; he wishes Blacks had that same high expectations placed upon them.</p>

<p>The Black PhD tells me that if your worried about your mental health and whether you'll get depression or anxiety because of pressures to get good grades and attend top universities, you should feel utterly lucky. He pointedly tells me that I should try worrying about living in the ghetto and just having enough food to eat each day....</p>

<p>In many respects, I guess what the Black PhD is telling me is the truth. Many East Asians I know believe that it's worth it to sacrifice your mental health and personal happiness if it means high achievement -- top grades and prestigious universities. East Asians believe that these sacrifices are worth it. Mental health is a psychological thing....</p>

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know it's a poor and somewhat extreme analogy, but hopefully you'll understand what I have to say. The media -- and our very own parents -- are taking away our individuality and telling us to CONFORM TO THE MODEL MINORITY STEREOTYPE (the nice gifted overachieving Chinese boy who will go to MIT and Harvard medical school to be a doctor).

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<p>Your analogy is very well stated. Ultimately at the end of the day, you have to make your own bed. So, what is this generation of young Chinese/Korean students doing to counteract their parents' messages of Harvard or bust?</p>

<p>Just yesterday, I met an Asian friend of my daughter's; they are going to the same summer college program this summer. My two children are taking classes in interest areas that interest them (this year, it happens to be psychology and religion) because for my money, I care about them developing and nurturing passions -- and the specific field is of little importance. This girl is taking AP Biology in the fall (she's not particularly interested in Bio, but ...), and really wanted to take Creative Writing over the summer, but she related that her father is making her take Bio so she'll do better in AP Bio next year. @@ Now, obviously, this young lady isn't in a position to counteract her father's influence, but maybe, just maybe, some of these parents will realize that crushing their children's spirits is an awful, terrible thing to do. Sorry, IAYF. I "understand" it but that doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion on it, and I think that the pressure for only certain prestigious schools and the pressure to study certain fields and the definition of success as merely predicated on making $$$ even if you hate the field is despicable.</p>

<p>The thing people need to realize is that Asian American parents want what they perceive to be best for their children. To them, what is best for their children is to become adults who are in positions to have good jobs with good wages. They see the best route to this is going to a top college and going into a field like medicine, engineering, or business. They see these degrees as being the ones that get their children into the best employment positions with the best pay. You can't argue that the opportunities for someone right out of MIT with a degree in Mechanical Engineering are going to be better than the opportunities for someone right out of Norteastern with a degree in English. I do not wish to say one school is better than the other, one degree is tougher than the other, or that one path is better than the other. What I do want to show is that the paths encouraged by Asian American parents tend to be ones where "success" is more attainable. </p>

<p>You can't fault Asian American parents in general for pushing their children to be high acheivers academically. If they see that their child is intelligent Asian parents will push the child to do well in school. Without my parents pushing me I probably wouldn't have gotten the grades I got in high school and probably wouldn't have gotten into the prestigious college I now attend. It's better in the long run to pressure your children to be strong academically and work hard.</p>

<p>There are problems that arise when parents pressure their children too much. However, in my experience (middle school was 40% Asian, high school 20% Asian, college 25% Asian) it seems that the majority of parents do not pressure their children too much. I have Asian friends who are not very bright and their parents seem to be happy so long as the kids try their hardest. I have other friends who are very bright and able to live up to their parent's expectations. They don't seem to be unhappy or overwhealmed by the work. Without their parents pushing them they may not have achieved as much, but who is to say that they are worse off from their parents' pressure? The problem is when parents pressure their children too much and I have some friends who either caved under the pressure or did a complete 180 once they got to college and away from their parents.</p>

<p>well said, venkat. All parents do this, it is a good thing.</p>

<p>Ah, but preppy white parents were doing the same thing in the 1960s. Or at least they were in Dead Poet's Society.</p>

<p>The Asian gerontocracy is just outdated. ;)</p>

<p>Venkat89 and keefer, you say it's a "good thing" that Asian parents push their kids to succeed.</p>

<p>How do you explain or justify the high rates of depression, mental illness, and suicide attempts by East Asian youth?</p>

<p>I knew one Korean guy, very bright (Wharton graduate). Had two DUI convictions DURING college (despite those convictions, he was still offered a job at a prestigious Wall Street i-bank). Recently, he went to rehab to be treated for depression and possible bi-polar behavior. </p>

<p>I guess if that's the price of success, Asian parents are happy.</p>