Assault claimed at Naval Academy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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There are many other reasons that are more applicable as to why I ignore much of your posts.

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<p>and yet you proceed to spend an inordinate, actually a remarkable amount of time and energy in some attempt at refuting the points I (and others) make… worse this infantile banter does absolutely nothing to contribute to or enhance the information available to prospective mids that may actually have some reasonable questions worthy of an answer… but then again this is all about you isn’t it? </p>

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Civilian schools do not as a rule, enforce curfews. So, at SAs, binge drinkers who just guzzled that last drink, and, in no way, shape, or form, ready to end the evening, are forced to return to Bancroft Hall ( I invite you to spend a late evening with the senior shore patrol officer at fleet landing). These individuals roaming around the hall are a recipe for disaster.

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<p>eureka! I had no idea that was how it worked… I appreciate the enlightenment, I never realized at “normal colleges” kids don’t return to their dorms drunk, hammered, stoned or otherwise intoxicated. As responsible young adults that just finished off a half keg at a frat party they…they… that’s it…they get a hotel room and sleep it off so they can return to their dorm in an appropriate state of sobriety.. Unlike the irresponsible young adults at the Naval Academy that just show up drunk and kick in unlocked doors..</p>

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<p>Hmmmmmmmmmmm just when this forum was getting to be more civilized....
perhaps someone needs four days of R&R.</p>

<p>USNA69 - is trying to make the point that living in a restrictive environment is not a deterrent to bad behavior. Perhaps that kids who don't have to abide by curfew are not in the situtation of being forced into there rooms "just when the party is getting started" .. this may or may not be true - but it seems what may have happened in reading the account of the Owens case.</p>

<p>Yes - kids do open locked doors for others - esp kids they know. However, in certain situations a locked door can provide another barrier - to prevent bad behavior. It at the least provided both parties another moment to rethink the situation.</p>

<p>One fact - nearly all campus sexual assalts are between parties who KNOW each other - over 90%. In nearly all occasions alcohol is involved.</p>

<p>Find a way to stop the alcohol abuse and the sexual abuse will stop.</p>

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Civilian schools are not as restrictive in relation to personal freedoms. A restricted environment promotes binge drinking.

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<p>I think that possibly has to be the most enlightened comment on the thread. I never actually learned the right way to drink alcohol until I graduated. Sitting down and having a beer or a glass of wine was something that used to be very foreign to me, forget spending time at a bar without constantly putting a mug to my lips</p>

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<p>"more civilized"? No way. The mods have already nuked at least one of his tirades on this thread.</p>

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<p>Hmmm......</p>

<p>well for what it is worth, will agree with Z that it is more about the individual gaining control- and keeping control- of his/her own behavior.</p>

<p>Will also agree with justamom that getting a better handle on alcohol abuse will stop a lot of inappropiate behavior- sexual abuse among them.</p>

<p>I am not sure locked doors are the answer. IMO, accountablilty is.</p>

<p>I will also like to say this.
I have no issue with reporting abuse when it occurs-
but where I do have an issue is when the "accusor," be they male, female or otherwise, is allowed to go "free" if the charges brought forth prove to be "false." Justice needs to be served- equally and equitably.</p>

<p>USNA69 brings up the Owens case- and for that, there are only 2 people in the world that knows what happened in that room. A panel found Owens not guilty of the assult- guilty of another count if I am correct, but not the assault. It was also documented that the female mid involved was far from innocent in the events that unfolded- but she remains at the academy. So one irreparably harmed, one allowed to move forward..... for the latter, no doubt justice will find its own level within the halls of Bancroft. IMO, justice was far from served, and it's scales remain tipped.</p>

<p>itlstallion and others bring up valid points as well- responsible drinking (emphasis on responsible) needs to be learned- sometimes the hard way, but nevertheless, learned. 0-0-1-3 is a reasonable start to the process- and at least Adm Rempt put a process in place to start to address the issue.... IMO, far ahead of the vast majority civilian schools throughout the remainder of the country. </p>

<p>Learning to "drink responsibly" starts well before I-Day...... but then again, I am of the school of allowing wine with dinner- funny thing is, my kids never saw fit to take me up on the offer! Which is not to say they are "tea totalers"... I am not naive enough to think they don't do their fair share of partying.... but I can see that, at least for them, the "novelity" of drinking has worn off. What has been stressed, ad nauseum, is the importance to "stay in control" ...and know one's limits. I pray they have each learned that lesson, and as far as I am concerned, that lesson needs to start- and be learned at home.</p>

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Find a way to stop the alcohol abuse and the sexual abuse will stop.

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<p>I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. Your statement tends to want to blame the alcohol rather than the person who committed the act.</p>

<p>The alcohol did not pour itself down the person's throat. Nor did it, once it had arrived, point a gun to their head and say, "Assault that person over there or I'll kill you."</p>

<p>No, the responsibility lies solely and exclusively with the moron who commits the act, be it alcohol abuse, sexual abuse, or both.</p>

<p>Alcohol abuse, assaults, and other crimes and bad behaviors will continue until such time as the PEOPLE who commit these acts are held STRICTLY ACCOUNTABLE, and not given handy excuses such as, "But I was drunk at the time!" or, "But everyone else was drinking, too!"</p>

<p>I'm not going to blame Ford Motor Company or Coors Brewery if a guy gets drunk, gets behind the wheel, and runs over an infant. I'm not going to blame the infant's mother or the manufacturer of the stroller, either. I'm going to take the murdering drunk, try him in a court of law, find him guilty, and execute him publicly. That way, the next time someone walks into a bar to get sloshed, in the back of their mind they will know what is going to happen to them if they are as stupid as the last idiot.</p>

<p>Hell, we may as well sue pencil and calculator manufacturers when the IRS catches us cheating on our taxes....</p>

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<p>^^^^ on the same page I see! ;)</p>

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Yes - kids do open locked doors for others - esp kids they know. However, in certain situations a locked door can provide another barrier - to prevent bad behavior. It at the least provided both parties another moment to rethink the situation.</p>

<p>One fact - nearly all campus sexual assalts are between parties who KNOW each other - over 90%. In nearly all occasions alcohol is involved.

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<p>From a Dad-of-4 to a Mom-of-4, the bottom line is most everyone that has posted regarding this thread is in general agreement on the subject. As you pointed out in your post kids open locked doors for kids they know, combine that with the fact that most assaults occur between people that know each other, and you just reaffirmed the main point that has been discussed; locked doors or the ability to lock a door has little or no impact on the potential for a sexual assault between college or academy students.</p>

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Find a way to stop the alcohol abuse and the sexual abuse will stop.

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<p>There is no doubt that the use of alcohol plays a significant role in sexual assaults, arguably the single biggest factor in driving the kind of events we are discussing. Abuse however is more difficult to define and associate with the specific circumstances that tend to surround it. As I tried to say in #31: </p>

<p>Having “authority” over someone is a more often than not a new experience and responsibility for Mids. Outside their younger siblings perhaps, this ability to control the lives of others can be a real challenge to exercise with an appropriate level of restraint. Add in hormones and the dynamics of male/female interaction and you can create circumstances in which things either get out hand or actions are misinterpreted. I’m sure this area is one of the greatest challenges for Mids to successfully navigate; mistakes will be made and lines will be crossed; better to have it happen here where lessons can be learned than in the fleet. </p>

<p>What has happened on this thread as well as many others is the fact that minor, almost irrelevant aspects of a discussion become the fodder for contention, in affect we’re arguing about minutia. The discussion becomes one centered on the personalities and egos of the participants and their unwillingness to cede any validity to the positions and points made be other. Most everyone that takes the time to post on CC has good points to make as well as a sincere interest in helping prospective Mids navigate the tedious process surrounding their application to the USNA or another SA. It doesn’t matter whether I agree with their position or assessment of the situation at hand, it’s their point to make. ’69 on the other hand is the quintessential bully; given his life experiences he should be one of the most valuable contributors to the substance of this site. Between his experiences at the academy and his life in the Navy he represents a wealth of knowledge and experience that many of us that visit the CC; parent and kids alike; could benefit from. Unfortunately when he isn’t assaulting many of the moms that post here or questioning the integrity of the few Mids that still drop in from time to time or the former Supt or the Brigade at large, he’s attacking anyone and everyone that disagrees with him. I said little if anything about it for most of the year or so I’ve been reading and posting here. In retrospect thinking that engaging him on his level would actually make him consider the impact our discussions have on the site was obviously a mistake. I’ve simply contributed to the background noise that we all just want to go away….</p>

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<p>I should add that I don't know how one "teaches" the responsible use of alcohol. Is it really that complicated a thing?</p>

<p>"Son, if you overconsume alcohol, you're going to get foul sick. Aside from not being any fun, you will be tempted to do some really stupid things that can, in an instant, ruin your life or the life of those around you. Don't do it."</p>

<p>That's basically what my father taught me. Even when I was in elementary school, he'd tell me, "You wanna get drunk! COOL! I'll bring the booze, and you and me can sit down in the basement and get complete ****-faced. </p>

<p>However, never, ever, EVER drink on a street corner with your buddies. Nothing but bad news in that."</p>

<p>You wanna know how many times I've been drunk in my 40 years? Once. I acted like a complete idiot, too. Fortunately, I did nothing illegal and still had enough wits about me to order the Shore Patrol to go find my Chief, who was REALLY sloshed. Still, I got sick to my stomach, had the best night's sleep of my life, and (by some miracle neither I nor the Chief have been able to fathom) woke up without a hangover. I swore I would never get drunk again, and I never have.</p>

<p>I didn't need a 12-step program, or a formalized series of lectures with muster being taken, or any some such. All I needed was a simple lesson followed by a mild example. In other words, I was smart. Others were even smarter: they've NEVER been drunk.</p>

<p>I've never taken a single illicit drug, or tried to get high, or even puffed a cigarette (despite my dad being a 2-pack-a-day man for the first 11 years of my life). Didn't take an experiment or a semester course (repeated annually) to make me see that drugs were BAD NEWS.</p>

<p>So, I stand by what I have always said: "Alcohol Abuse", "Drug Abuse", and "Personal Conduct" training at USxA should amount to a three minute speech, ONE WAY, where the new Midshipmen/Cadets are warned:</p>

<p>"Alcohol abuse will not be tolerated, nor will it be accepted as an excuse for behavior while under the influence. While you can certainly go out and get drunk, you will be held strictly accountable for what you do while drunk, and if your actions reflect poorly upon the Service, you will be gone within 24 hours. Drug abuse, sexual assault, etc., will not be tolerated at all, and will result in instant dismissal once it is shown that you are guilty. Any action that could be considered criminal WILL be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. No questions will be taken because none are necessary. You have been warned. Sign the roster on the way out. Dismissed."</p>

<p>That's it. If they screw up after that, you throw the book at them and do so in a way that the rest of their associates say, "CRIPES! I ain't letting THAT happen to ME!"</p>

<p>THAT is you you treat an ADULT. Midshipmen and Cadets are (we hope) ADULTS. Treat them that way and we all might be surprised at just how well they react to it.</p>

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<p>I think one might perhaps discover, should they do a study of USNA sexual assaults that many, if not most, of the assaults are outside the chain of command, between contemporaries. And you probably failed to read my previous post where I stated that some of the USNA cases began when a female mid discovered someone in her rack. Those definitely would not have happened either had the door been locked.</p>

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<p>In too many cases at USNA, Owens included, a substantial amount of the initial evidence was based on how the accused got into the room, whether he was invited or not. If the accusor got out of bed and unlocked the door, it might distribute the burden of proof somewhat.</p>

<p>Zap, my discussion has not been about fault but simply about comparing the atmosphere at USNA to that of a civilian college. Since the majority of the USNA assault cases involve alcohol, the correlation has to be addressed.</p>

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Zap, my discussion has not been about fault but simply about comparing the atmosphere at USNA to that of a civilian college. Since the majority of the USNA assault cases involve alcohol, the correlation has to be addressed.

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<p>Don't sweat it. My comments have not been directed at anyone in particular (save the one statement I disagreed with). </p>

<p>I recognize that the correlation CAN be made and should therefore be addressed. However, one should be careful with correlations because they do not establish causation, but rather only a POSSIBLE relationship.</p>

<p>Birds begin singing in the early dawn. Excellent correlation. </p>

<p>I guess that the singing of birds is therefore responsible for the sun rising. ;)</p>

<p>The old story about 84.8% of all statistics being lies holds true...</p>

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<p>Figures can lie, and liars can figure.</p>

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<p>rjrzoom:
Do you want to discuss Academy sexual abuse or the merits of postings by USNA69 on this forum??</p>

<p>Can't really do both on this thread - if you want to discuss USNA69 - open up a new thread and go at it. You can air your differences. While I don't agree with everything he says - he DOES have many years of experience of academy involvement - between attending the academy, serving as an officer, being the parent of a mid, parent of an officer and involvement as a BGO for many years - he does bring a different perspective from parents who currently have mids at the academy.</p>

<p>Academy sexual abuse - </p>

<p>In close to 100% of the cases alcohol is involved by both parties. Period.
If the mids/cadets involved in sexual abuse cases were not inebriated then the abuse would not have occurred.</p>

<p>Both males and females need to be repeatedly educated on the who, what, when, where and whys of sexual abuse.
Mids who live with and next to each other need to learn not to tolerate conditions that can lead up to sexual abuse. They need to be looking out for each other - both the female at risk of being victimized and the male who is at risk of committing a felony.</p>

<p>None of your sons go to the Academy as a sexual abuser - they never intend to become a sexual abuser, they don't go out at night wondering whom they can abuse. It is circumstances that get out of control while under the influence of alcohol.
None of our daughters is asking to become a victim. They don't intend to become a victim, they don't go out at night wondering who will victimize them. It is circumstances that get out of control while under the influence of alcohol.</p>

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In close to 100% of the cases alcohol is involved by both parties. Period.

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<p>I'm sorry but I don't believe that statement is anything close to accurate or correct. Sexual abuse takes many forms and is not limited to rapes, or attempted rape. If you were speaking strictly of rape I might agree, however the abuse that is far more common is much less obvious. Are you suggesting by your assertion if a mid gropes another mid at some point during the day, we should therefore conclude that Mid was drunk? Or that such as act was not sexual abuse? If an upper class Mid, male OR female makes suggestive or vulgar comments to an underclassmen that are interpreted as a attempt to coerce sexual activity; is that an abuse of a position of authority? Should we assume that too only happens when they are drunk? </p>

<p>While the statistics no doubt support the fact that the vast majority of sexual abuse is male to female, I certainly wouldn't approach the subject in strictly gender based terms. </p>

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he DOES have many years of experience of academy involvement

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<p>I believe I said that.</p>

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<p>Allow me to clarify - you are correct the term "sexual abuse" I used is too tame. I am speaking of felonious sexual assault - also known as rape. The kind that gets one sent to jail.</p>

<p>Most rapes that occur among young adults in a campus type situation are what are also known as Date Rape - in nearly 100% of Date Rape alcohol is involved. In many cases of Date Rape the assailant is completely surprised that he is being accused and charged. Being convicted of Date Rape is equal to being convicted of Rape - at a service academy - you lose your education, your career and go to jail.</p>

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<p>Agreed. </p>

<p>My son spent two years with his karate instructor teaching the Rape Aggression Defense System (RAD) at his high school during health classes. My wife went through it as well at his Dojo. It's a class I would recommend to anyone, especially a young woman heading off to college. I think more than anything they do a good job preparing you to react when the unexpected occurs; while they don't turn you into a ninja warrior, the knowledge they pass along could help you avoid rape or worse.</p>

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<p>^^^ good for your son! I believe martial arts is the youngster PE activity at USNA. That reminds me of when my daughter was reviewing the USNA literature prior to submitting her application. Boxing was on the class matrix for plebe year. We looked at each other and said, "But what do the females take?" We soon found out. Boxing. My mid, who favors the color pink and ruffles, says she actually "Really got into boxing!" ;)</p>

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<p>rjrzoom - good for your son. those programs are terrific. The problem is the female cannot put them to good use when she is inebriated. </p>

<p>The other issue you brought up - sexual abuse - which is more insiduous - belongs to the culture of the Academy. The culture and tolerance of such behavior - boorish at best, abusive at worse allows this to continue.</p>

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<p>A bandaid, not a cure. The emphasis and training at USNA should go the other way.</p>

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<p>Bingo. If I have heard it once, I have heard it a thousand times. On the hangar deck at 1am from a crusty old chief. "Get him undressed and in his rack and don't let him out." Cold cocked my best friend one night during first class year to keep him in his room. It was touch and go for a few days but we are still best friends.</p>