Assault claimed at Naval Academy

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
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Rape Aggression Defense System (RAD) ............... It's a class I would recommend to anyone, especially a young woman heading off to college.

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A band aid, not a cure. The emphasis and training at USNA should go the other way.

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<p>RAD classes are primarily taught to women, young adults and children in an effort to prepare them for a worse case scenario in which they face possible assault, abduction and sexual assault or rape. Participants are taught how to avoid placing themselves in situations that might increase their risk as well as what techniques are most effective in repelling an attack should it become unavoidable. </p>

<p>I realize your flippant discounting of the program has everything to do with the fact that I brought it up and is not based on any first hand knowledge you may have with the program or the benefits it provides. Also you may want to review the use and application of metaphors. A band aid is typically applied after an injury has occurred; a cut or abrasion for example. RAD classes are taught as a proactive measure; if you wanted to invoke medical metaphors calling them something more along the lines of an inoculation or vaccination perhaps would be more appropriate. </p>

<p>As to the fact that they are not a cure, there is no cure that I am aware of, education is only one part of an approach to preventing sexual assaults.</p>

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<p>Let me take a stab at this - this program is fabulous and every woman should have such training to defend herself. </p>

<p>That said - in a perfect world - our female plebes/cadets should not HAVE to undergo such training to protect themselved from their fellow plebes/cadets.</p>

<p>Self defense training does not prevent the attempt or the attack - it only prevents the assault from coming to fruition. Unless as I have said before - alcohol/drugs are involved and the woman is incapacitated.</p>

<p>The academies teach women self defense training. The purpose is not to defend themselves from their fellow soldiers - though they often need to - it is to defend themselves from the enemy.</p>

<p>I think what USNA69 is trying to say - is that rather the prevention of sexual assaults at our service academies focus on self defense training for women - the men need to be educated. Teaching and training our male plebes/cadets about sexual assault would be the ultimate prevention because then the assaults/attempted assaults would stop. In a perfect world of course.</p>

<p>IMO - both males and females need to be involved but we absolutely can't leave men out of the process. To do so would not be fair to them.</p>

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<p>Definitely don't leave the men out of the process. The men need to know how to protect themselves from overly aggressive women. :D</p>

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<p>Oh yeah you are funny! </p>

<p>You are also absolutely correct - our Service academies throw together 4000 kids from all walks of life, all states and regions of our country. There are societal and cultural differences between cadets depending upon where they come from.</p>

<p>The young women and young men involved need to learn how to relate to each other as people - without getting gender involved.
Let's say during PT - a female comes up behind and male and offers encouragement - is this a come-on? is she being a team player?
then later she sees him casually - and remarks on his good job - some males may think this is a come-on when she was just being part of the team.
Honestly, a woman who is in an enviroment where there are 4-5 men for every female does not have to be overly aggressive -;). </p>

<p>Men definitely need to be a part of the process. Women do not want to be or ask to be sexually assaulted -for sure. But men (and I have all daughters) - IMO are at risk to lose the most. Women can and do recover. Men who are convicted of rape - the law makes no distinction between date rape and non date rape - risk losing their education, career, doing lengthy jail time, racking up mega legal fees and being labeled a convicted sex offender for the rest of their lives. This is a tragedy for all involved.</p>

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In close to 100% of the cases alcohol is involved by both parties. Period.
If the mids/cadets involved in sexual abuse cases were not inebriated then the abuse would not have occurred.</p>

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<p>It is circumstances that get out of control while under the influence of alcohol.

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<p>It didn't pour itself down their throat. Just because they were inebriated doesn't relieve them of responsibility.</p>

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Both males and females need to be repeatedly educated on the who, what, when, where and whys of sexual abuse.

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<p>Why "repeatedly"? Why not just once? If they can't grasp such a simple concept, then they bloody well shouldn't be leading others into battle.</p>

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They need to be looking out for each other - both the female at risk of being victimized and the male who is at risk of committing a felony.

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<p>As well as those who trump up charges for other reasons.</p>

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The problem is the female cannot put them to good use when she is inebriated.

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<p>That's her own fault. While she will definitely not be responsible for someone assaulting her, she IS responsible for not being able to defend herself due to her inebriation.</p>

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Bingo. If I have heard it once, I have heard it a thousand times. On the hangar deck at 1am from a crusty old chief. "Get him undressed and in his rack and don't let him out." Cold cocked my best friend one night during first class year to keep him in his room. It was touch and go for a few days but we are still best friends.

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<p>Amen to this, and also to Mom's statement concerning Mids looking out for one another. I did it several times myself, although I didn't need to cold **** anyone, fortunately. I DID, however, have to tackle a classmate in the P-Way once.</p>

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It didn't pour itself down their throat. Just because they were inebriated doesn't relieve them of responsibility.

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Right - being drunk is not a defense in the court of law.</p>

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Why "repeatedly"? Why not just once? If they can't grasp such a simple concept, then they bloody well shouldn't be leading others into battle.

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repeatedly - because you are dealing with teenagers and young adults with maturing brains who come from many different cultural and social backgrounds. When you try to change behavior then it needs to be done repeatedly - not every week but every year or bi-annually. </p>

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That's her own fault. While she will definitely not be responsible for someone assaulting her, she IS responsible for not being able to defend herself due to her inebriation.

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Not according to the law. The law only cares about consent. If the female is incapacitated then she cannot give consent. In no way am I condoning a female being so inebriated that she can't defend herself - but she has the same protection under the law while inebriated as she would if she were incapable of defending herself.</p>

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<p>We had some training on sensitivity to issues as this back in the Stone age of the 80's
Red Light means NO NO NO
Green light means yes
Yellow light means the other party understands that the "pun or joke or even an advance" was not particularly threatening but watch it or maybe clarify your meaning or intention. </p>

<p>It was simple
It worked,, Mostly</p>

<p>This helped many a workplace as females became a regular part of an underway carrier environment. Us good ole boys learned some valuable lessons, and some overly nervous females got a chance to set some parameters and not seem too uptight.
I can think of more than one occasion where in mixed company someone said something that may have been inappropriate, and a shipmate, even a male one would say "redlight PO jones" we would be able to see that comment, was out of line and continue. the event was over. Nothing more needed to be said and everyone in the situation learned a little something. This also went as far as flirting. You may think that what you said to a contemporary was 'Cool' or even fun. You quickly found out if you got a Red light that you were just a horses XXX.
I agree that these young folks are coming from everywhere in the world and what is common in some places is abhorrent in others. Just treat everyone with the respect that you want your sister treated with and it is all good. </p>

<p>"All the best stuff in life I learned in kindergarten"
Play nice with others.
treat everyone the way that you want to be treated
raise your hand to talk
Use please and thank you</p>

<p>My 2 cents
Mike
BTW we also had a female PO3 that had to be redlighted by more people than anyone I had ever seen. She was a unique individual. very open with the comments and "dated" quite a bit. Heard from her first (of 3)husbands (married my buddy) that she is now a RN and just got her commission. She was, however her faults, one of the hardest working PO's I knew and could be relied upon for getting the job done. Deck division to Nurse corps whoda thunk it?</p>

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<p>Any positive value for the females would be outweighed by the signal that it is sending to the males. A signal that "hey, we know you are not responsible for your actions so we are going to protect you from yourselves". Kind of akin to the carrier skipper sending a message to the upcoming port, "lock up your women and children, the fleet is coming." Probably in a mature environment, it would be worthwhile, but with the situation now, it would send entirely a wrong signal. It is somewhat rationalizing and working around present male behavior.</p>

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<p>Once again, go away a bit . . . you can be sure the Chinese are not wasting wasting their time on sites like this . . . during the business day; [Or at night for that matter.]
I see the "happy family" [oh, never mind, that was a chinese dish] is still at it.</p>

<p>RJR, rather than send a PM in support, which you will then have to clip and re-post herein, thought I would just say: you have it mostly correct. Here. . .you get a "Many thanks" too. [I assume among the others that you have received.]</p>

<p>Just a mom. Being drunk can be a defense in the court. As will probably be typical, however, some people will condem this because it runs contrary to what they think the law should be. Nonetheless, the law provides for a defense if you lose control of your abilities.</p>

<p>"Repeatedly" as in those studies that show kids who take the abstinence pledges have a higher rate of pre-marital pregnancy than those who do not. But . . . who cares about facts.</p>

<p>Consent IS the issue in a matter such as this. At the edges, an evolving issue is whether "consent" can be withdrawn and at what point can it be withdrawn, i.e. can it be withdrawn after "third base" has been rounded?</p>

<p>I, too, have gotten many PM telling me what a great job I am doing. Can I pat myself on the back?
Know what, I think my college peers thought I was real smart . . . did I let you all know that? Heck, let's just agree that everybody on here is right and everybody else is wrong. . . that seems to be the current approach to solving the country's problems.</p>

<p>Z. It's called training. Isn't that what the military does? Train, train, and re-train. Even smart people sometimes have difficulty grasping simple concepts [as is evidenced herein on a daily basis].</p>

<p>JustAMom: The males are not being left out. The Academy's training program is called SHAPE.<br>
Mids have been trained to present this "Sexual Harassment Awareness P E" program to their peers in the hopes that "mid to mid" the program will stick a bit better than it has. Both males and females are taking the class.</p>

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Z. It's called training.

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<p>I disagree.</p>

<p>Training is required to ensure that some actions and knowledge can be performed or accessed almost without thinking while under stress, and to do so in support of the mission.</p>

<p>It does not take "training" to know that getting sloshed and becoming a disgrace to the Service is a bad thing, or that sexual assault is worse. You want to give examples with "green light, yellow light, red light" scenarios? Meh, maybe I'll go along, but it certainly doesn't require 25 hours of "training".</p>

<p>Cripes, I learned to load, fire, field strip, clean, and reassemble four different kinds of weapons in less than half that time, and that was far more mission-critical.</p>

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Not according to the law. The law only cares about consent. If the female is incapacitated then she cannot give consent. In no way am I condoning a female being so inebriated that she can't defend herself - but she has the same protection under the law while inebriated as she would if she were incapable of defending herself.

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<p>I realize that the point of this law is to fight against people praying on others... i.e. purposely getting them drunk and taking advantage. But the wording of this law opens the door for what one of female friends at the Academy aptly called "buyer's regret." It opens the door for people who gave consent when they were drunk to then rescind that consent after the fact... Basically, from a plausible perspective, it allows someone not to be accountable for what they did while inebriated. If someone is accountable for all other actions that they take part in this state, then why not this one???</p>

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Amen to this, and also to Mom's statement concerning Mids looking out for one another. I did it several times myself, although I didn't need to cold **** anyone, fortunately. I DID, however, have to tackle a classmate in the P-Way once.

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<p>I think many of us have our stories with that. My favorite was when i threw my best friend to the ground as he was trying to pick a fight with someone working at the bars after they closed. As I was leading him away he had some choice words for the cops who were doing their job not too far away.</p>

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USNA69 wrote: Bingo. If I have heard it once, I have heard it a thousand times. On the hangar deck at 1am from a crusty old chief. "Get him undressed and in his rack and don't let him out." Cold cocked my best friend one night during first class year to keep him in his room. It was touch and go for a few days but we are still best friends.

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<p>Last year, my son was put in an awkward situation by his roommates and another female classmate. He'd been out on a date with his GF in town and came back to the hall. His female classmate was acting goofy and he finally got it out of her that she had been drinking as had his two roommates - all underage. He told her to go to bed before she got busted. He did the same thing for his two roommates, and ensured that they stayed in the room.</p>

<p>Two weeks later, he was pulled from a deep sleep at 2AM and hustled to the company wardroom by the Midshipman on duty - who happened to be his Plebe Summer squad leader. His two roommates were also rousted and brought to the wardroom. They were all breathalyzed - my son came back 0.0 - and sent back to their room. The two roommates were not 0.0, and were both put on conduct report.</p>

<p>In the ensuing investigation it came to light that the two knuckleheads he roomed with had done it before, and that my son knew about it, but didn't report them to the chain of command. He was interviewed and asked why, and he said that it was a judgment call and that he felt they were just being stupid. Neither was apparently drunk, but had been drinking. Case closed? Not so fast...</p>

<p>Next thing he knows, he's being told by his Company Officer (a Navy LT) that he has a "serious character flaw" for not bilging his classmates and that he's going to see the Deputy Commandant for not reporting them. Fortunately, common sense prevailed, and he was warned but not punished.</p>

<p>Moral of the story? Even when you try and take care of your shipmates and exercise judgment you can be collateral damage. I told him that I agreed with his decision and probably would have done the same thing - for what it was worth - but that life is sometimes not fair.</p>

<p>It seems that taking care of your shipmates is not enough, and that exercising good judgment can still get you in hot water.</p>

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<p>This sounds like West Point not the Naval Academy. If you don't turn in your classmate, you are guilty of an offense? :eek:</p>

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<p>^^^^^^. Yep, scary. It doesn't sound like USNA. Was the Company Officer an academy grad? You do know that many now are not? Some of those seem to have some weird ideas about the way things work.</p>

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<p>Put the drinking age back to 18, learn to drink responsibly at home with the support or wrath of family. Studies have proven that the 21 drinking age has a direct connection with binge drinking and has lead to more lewd behavior in the 21 to 24 year old range. Would be interested to know the problems in the Ensign realms. I grew up in a 18 state - we drank senior year of high school but we did not drink to get drunk by any-means. Todays youth has one idea about drinking - how much and how fast, Sad.</p>

<p>Responsible drinking education starts way before high school and college. Alcohol is the poisson fruit that every high school and underage college student wants. If they are taught from a young age that drinking is no big deal - over drinking makes you feel like trash and do stupid things. Personally I go for the European way where alcohol is a drink to be had at the dinner table. Living in Milan - not once did I ever see drunk teens out on the street. Just something to think about.</p>

<p>The standard at the Academy is 0-0-1-3. 0 if underage, 0 if driving, 1 drink per hour, 3 drinks per event. Not a bad plan for all to adhere to.</p>

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<p>^^^^^^^This probably is the forum to propose that if one is old enough to die for their country, they ought to be old enough to buy a beer.</p>

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<p>usnadad&grad,
More examples of good/bad leadership. Sounds like you raised your son to do the right thing. On the other hand, two years ago a female plebe was involved in frat relationships with two separate firsties, and she lied about the first one, thus resulting in one honor offense and two conduct offenses, a long restriction, being transferred to another company and serving a third semester of plebedom. Company members were interviewed and asked what they knew about the situation. Some who told the truth were disparaged for 'bilging' their shipmate. Oh, and this semester former frat plebe is a training sergeant for her new company. One of her former firstie boyfriends almost got kicked out, but had a delayed graduation because he didn't have any prior conduct problems. All are going Marines, which I find somewhat ironic.</p>

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<p>As a future naval officer, you learn at the Naval Academy to drink in a responsible way, if at all, and to shun illegal drugs entirely. Maybe the food in King Hall would be more palatable if they did serve beer and wine!</p>

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This probably is the forum to propose that if one is old enough to die for their country, they ought to be old enough to buy a beer. USNA69

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Couldn't agree more!</p>

<p>Definitely more palatable with beer and wine! It would be better than the sour milk to wash it down with. Mids all eat a ton last Sat. Nothing like good pub food after a football game. To bad they couldn't have a pub drink.</p>

<p>Seems that I saw a post from a news source a while back that the Marines are allowing "underage" drinking, on base at official Marine Functions.
<a href="http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/05/marine_alcohol_070511/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2007/05/marine_alcohol_070511/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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The Corps-wide drinking age has been lowered from 21 to 18 for Marines on liberty overseas and for leathernecks taking part in official on-base command functions — including the birthday ball.

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Leading the way
But the commandant’s changes go further than any other service’s policy, decriminalizing welcome-home beer for underage Marines returning from deployment and giving commanders the authority to hold an 18-and-up kegger on base upon a unit’s return from a war zone.</p>

<p>And there’s no need to hide a flask in your sock before the birthday ball, because the commandant has you covered there, too. As long as your unit holds its celebration on base, commanders can drop the drinking age to 18 in the U.S. under “special circumstances,” and even authorize the possession and consumption of alcohol by underage Marines in the barracks.</p>

<p>The new policy defines these circumstances as “those infrequent, non-routine military occasions when an entire unit, as a group, marks at a military installation a uniquely military occasion, such as the conclusion of arduous military duty or the anniversary of the establishment of a military service or organization.”</p>

<p>Though the policy opens the door for Marine commanders to lower the drinking age on any service’s birthday, as well as the day their unit was formed, it applies only if the unit function is held on base, and commanders must “ensure that appropriate controls are in place to prevent endangering military service members or the surrounding community,” the message states.

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<p>I think most will agree that there is already an existing problem at USNA. The time to be proactive has passed. Therefore a bandaid analogy is perfectly correct.</p>