<p>I think this applies to anyone looking to get recruited. We visited 3 schools last week. Two of the coaches came right out and said they are very interested in my son, that they want to invite him for an official visit and it was obvious that the interest is sincere. The third coach while he expressed interest was realistic about the process and that not much will be done before all the components are in (grades, scores,etc.....). A few that know we went asked how long the visits were and if we met the head coach or just assistant. I thought it was interesting, because they said that can tell you something too.</p>
<p>We first met with the asst. coach for about 30-40 minutes who gave us a thorough tour and asked a lot of questions and then we met with the coaches, and they spent a good 30 minutes plus with us, they were very accommodating and friendly. Invited us to stay for games and invited us to even join the team afterwards, which we could not do as my daughter had something going on.</p>
<p>My son sent out thank you's a few days ago, and to the one school he really could see himself at expressed as much. So when someone asked us how we can assess how genuinely interested a coach is I thought it was an interesting topic. I can't imagine a busy coach especially on a game day taking time out to sit down with an athlete and his family for any length of time if he is genuinely not interested, do you all agree?</p>
<p>My daughter will also be a recruit in a few years, and I am sure much will continue to change, as things are changing so fast right now. Its a learn as we go process for us.</p>
<p>We just came back from a long college road trip and spent time with coaches.</p>
<p>It is important to remember that every scholar-athlete needs to cast a wide net and every coach does the same.
In the end it is the best athletes the coach can “catch” and the best match the scholar-athlete can make…</p>
<p>Coaches can only discuss things in hypotheticals because admission admits (scores/grades).</p>
<p>fogfog gave you great advice about casting that wide net. It is so important to always be looking at new schools and constantly getting in front of new coaches until you are verbally committed or accepted. These coaches can turn on the charm during the recruiting process when they want to, and when they need to…their job requires it. In the end, I’d pay more attention to what they do, not necessarily what they say early in the process. Many will promise you the world, and not follow up. Be prepared for that emotional roller coaster, and stick to that cast a wide net policy because that is your best leverage.</p>
<p>For some this process can take 12-18 months, so learning how this is done and how to read situations will become even more important. Good luck.</p>
<p>So if a coach verbally, specifically, says that he will have a kid back for an official visit, is that just an empty promise, or is it a positive step in the right direction? Are you guys suggesting that the coaches will just say anything in the moment? Why would they bring up the official visit if there isn’t something behind it? I’d hate to think that coaches just throw out unsolicited promises of official visits willy nilly to everyone who walks in the door!</p>
<p>I think most of us get that things can change, there are no guarantees, and that casting a wide net is essential. Momoffour is trying to get some help reading the situation. Is the response of the coaches at the first two schools more promising than the third, with the third coach certainly not out of the picture? Is it, in general, a sign that things are moving forward in a way that suggests that her son will eventually receive an OV?</p>
The challenge is you don’t know. We had a number of coaches lie directly to our faces about next visits, academic scholarships, we’ll call you next week, etc… Looking back, it was necessarily a bad thing as I wouldn’t want my kid playing for these coaches. Most coaches did what they said they were going to do, BUT on their timeline. Your timeline isn’t necessarily the same as the coaches timeline as he is dealing with other priorities and other recruits timelines. That is another issue entirely. But, you have to cast that wide net to find those coaches that really want you and will go to bat for you in Admissions. I hope that momoffour11’s son met that kind of coach, but there are no guarantees whatsoever for anyone. This is a very dynamic process, and you have to plan for multiple contingencies. Diversify. The best way to protect yourself is to continue to meet new coaches and learn about more programs. The coaches hold all the cards, and they are pretty good poker players.</p>
<p>
I found the third coaches comments to be honest and he is setting the correct expectations with his recruit. She will find out soon enough about these three schools for OVs, and I hope it works out. In the meantime, I would be trying to schedule additional un-OVs to more schools.</p>
<p>Great advice as always. Yes agree casting that wide net as the coaches do too is important and we are doing that as we speak. One of the coaches who mentioned the official visit said he only says it to his top recruits and from his reputation as a man of his word we are giving him the benefit that my son is in fact one of his top picks, at least for now, we know that can change. His club coach said that most coaches do not invite someone for a official visit unless they want to show you that they are serious. Its a total waste of time/money for a coach, school and setting up a student for big disappointment. Its a lose/lose, I cannot imagine any coach wasting his time like that. Doesn’t make sense at all.</p>
<p>I was told that a head coach only stops in for a few minutes, but in all three cases, the asst. met with us for about 45 min-1hr and the head coach about 30-45 min. They were happy to answer and ask many questions, and explain things. I realize there are many out there who might not do all they say, and I am expecting some twists and turns along the way (hopefully some good ones too), I keep telling myself that he will end up where he is meant to go. Fingers crossed!</p>
<p>also–lets remember our kids can be the “flavor of the week” and when a stronger student-athlete shows up (or the team chemistry is better) then everything the coach said flys out the window.</p>
<p>OUr k2 got some nice responses…“we want you to come for an OV in the fall”…“we hope we will be on your list because we’d like to have you on the team”…
Yet much can happen between now and when that OV invite comes, and after the OVs when the coaches put together their lists for admissions.</p>
<p>These were mostly D1 and D3 coaches. One D2.</p>
<p>About 5 years ago the son of a friend was “sure” to be admitted to Georgetown… thinking the coach was truly supporting the kid etc. It didn’t happen and the rejection letter was a tough for the kid/parents. They requested the “application be reviewed again”…
So it is important to not over read coach support/sway with admissions.</p>
<p>This can be a roller coaster of a process. From every coach my child is dealing with I would want to know how much pull they have in the admissions process (it can vary widely from program to program, school to school) - is it that they can give a list of ten athletes they would like to have or can they really support applications - is it only with an ED application or is it in the regular admissions pool as well etc…</p>
<p>I do not think any of the coaches were misleading. Some coaches are better sales people than others. To me, the third coach seems perhaps a bit more “seasoned”.</p>
<p>Slightly off the topic - the most important advice we received from two sources (one a retired professional player in my son’s sport and the other the brother of this retired pro who is the recruiting coach at a D1 program in my son’s sport):Think of the school and how you would feel if you had a terrible, career ending injury - if you would still be happy at the school then it is a place to pursue. If you would not be happy at the school and the sport is the only reason you wish to go there then it does not matter how great the athletic facilities are or how much the coach chases you - it is not a good match.</p>
<p>I think you’re taking the right approach, and you get the gist of it. It is music to my ears that you continuing to cast that wide net. In this process, if you can minimize the surprises you are doing really well.</p>
<p>Every sport is different so your mileage will vary. My son committed (Ivy baseball) before OVs started, so he never went on an OV to the school he currently attends. We did about 15-20 un-OVs total (D1 Mid-Majors, D1 Ivy and D3s), and frankly it worked out best for us because of our timeframe and other offers we had to consider. Currently, with the accelerated timetable in college recruiting, it seems that OVs are happening way too late…you limit your choices if things don’t work out. At least in baseball, most D1 recruits are committed by August before their senior year. Most D1 baseball players that I know have not gone on OVs because they committed months or a year before the OV dates.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’re thinking about it too logically. It is the coaches recruit not the school. I personally know some baseball recruits (flown in from CA and TX) that made Ivy OVs who were not accepted by those Ivys. It happens as fogfog had a similar situation with Gtown. What the coach wants and what Admission’s want can be two totally different things. Admissions will win that battle every time. </p>
<p>We had similar experience at Fenway, different sport also though. Went on many un OV’s son ended up committing to his school Nov of junior year. OV’s? doesn’t even really happen in golf much… players are deciding early and coaches are helping that process by making offers early.</p>
<p>In rowing, it seems like the OV/likely letter commit process happens mostly in the fall for the Ivies and top rowing schools, then continues on into the regular admit season for many other schools. It looks to me like there are kids who begin talking to coaches for the first time in the fall (because OV’s didn’t work out) with good results in the regular admit cycle. And some prep schools (my kid’s for instance) limit the number of OV’s even more than the NCAA. </p>
<p>So I guess I see the value in checking out other schools informally, but not so much in actively contacting more coaches if the kid already has, say, twice as many actively interested coaches as he has OV slots. That seems to me to be a waste of everyone’s time and effort. But this is our first go-round, so it’s entirely possible that I’m completely deluded too! (I suppose the other factor is that while Ivies are always a reach for everyone, my kid’s school has excellent admit results with top D3 schools, without the athletic boost, so our situation may be different from most…)</p>
<p>We use the “cast a wide net” expression a lot on the prep school forum. It’s great advice for kids who apply to only the most selective schools, with great all around stats. but nothing that really makes them stand out from the crowd. They tend to be horribly disappointed on admit day. The net philosophy has also been known to backfire though, when a kid applies to too many schools, and the schools figure the kid isn’t all that interested. I’d be concerned about a similar effect if a kid had to turn down an OV during the fall and then wanted to apply regular decision. </p>
<p>In prep school admits, the best results seem to happen when kids are (a) realistic about their attractiveness to a particular school and (b) apply to a smallish number of schools to which they are particularly well suited. While many people delude themselves, it is possible to determine whether you are within the high, mid, or reach range of athletic applicants to a particular school. So any thoughts on the choose wisely and not quite so broadly philosophy?</p>
<p>Based on your example, what you mean when you say “cast a wide net” is vastly different from what I mean. I do not mean it to apply to only the most selective schools. In my mind that is a very narrow focus to academically selective schools. I’m suggesting you look beyond that category of school.</p>
<p>Some recruits have strong academic credentials, athletic credentials, and difficult familyfinancial situations. What I am suggesting (for example) is to pursue colleges that have top notch academics (Ivys, NESCAC, Stanford), national level athletics (SEC, ACC, Big 10) and the best financial aid through merit scholarships, etc… Research each situation in depth to figure out exactly what is possible and what your son or daughter really wants to do. Then look at the academic, athletic, and financial mix for a particular school as you get closer to a coaches offer. </p>
<p>What we found was surprising to us. Things are not always as they seem, and many of my customers are Universities and Colleges across the country. My son’s goals never changed but the opportunities available did. It gave us a very broad base of schools to choose from. I think if you truly cast that wide net it will become very apparent what that dream school looks like. My perspective is a little tainted because my son knew exactly what he wanted to major in. Our challenge was finding that situation that fit him. I’ve shared our approach which is really an exercise in opening his eyes to the world in front of him and the choices. Truthfully, I don’t think he’d be where he is today had we not opened things up. I hope this makes sense.</p>
<p>That makes a lot of sense, fenway, and I appreciate your thoughtful analysis. Having one kid with a specific sense of what his academic goals are and one who absolutely does not, I know how different those searches can be. </p>
<p>My son is also in a sport that does not give athletic scholarships, and the number of programs out there for varsity men’s rowing is much more limited than for baseball or many other sports. All of that is probably affecting my perception of wide net. But just to clarify–my point about casting a wide net was also about applying to a range of schools, from reaches to easy fits. Applying to only the most selective schools in the regular admissions cycle is a recipe for disaster. </p>
<p>That said, I wonder if there is a point where being an athletic recruit no longer provides a significant boost in admissions. For example, when most of the schools are already committed to meeting full need and offer only merit-based aid, it seems to me the contact with a wide net of coaches is maybe not so important. Contact with coaches can be a time-consuming part of a kid’s already busy junior year. So to me it makes sense to focus mainly on those coaches at reach schools at this point, knowing that the kid has a solid chance of getting into those other schools during regular admissions on his own merit, perhaps with a late nod (rather than a significant push) from a coach down the road. I’m hypothesizing (perhaps incorrectly!) that whether or not he is an athlete will have little bearing on the FA/admissions offer in those cases. </p>
<p>So what I’m trying to piece out from all the solid advice above is this: When most of the schools provide generous, need-based scholarships with capped loans and commit to meeting full need, and the kid is academically a good fit for those schools, does the fact that a kid is an athlete make a lot of difference? At what point is time spent contacting more coaches time better spent doing something else? (I realize I’m veering off badly from OP’s original question.) </p>
<p>My best takeaway from this thread is “things are not always as they seem.”</p>
<p>For a small number of schools (MIT and Chicago) being an athletic recruit will make little difference in the admission process. For most of the selective schools being an athletic recruit can make a huge difference. For example if an athlete applies to Yale and receive a likely letter his chances of admission are almost 100%. Without a likely letter the chances are about 8%.</p>
<p>One thing to add----many respectable coaches will say you are a student first and need to have the grades/ability to do the work. A scholar-athlete is no good to a coach if they can’t play because of lack of academic performance.</p>
<p>For need based FA it only tells me Coach thinks the student is a capable athlete and capable student. Remember, the coach wants to get the best athlete possible through Admissions onto his team. The coach will not concern himself as much with the need based FA aspect. Still, I would consider as many schools as possible that fit your criteria just for the sake of “fit”. You don’t want to leave any stone unturned as you look at schools for a 4 year committment. In my experience, far too many athletes end up transferring for far too many reasons. Minimize that risk of transferring as best you can would be my two cents.</p>
<p>However, if it was a non-need based FA situation, it would tell me a different story. It would tell me the potential student would be considered a high achiever for that school. Most schools want to motivate their top 25% academic applicants with money (scholarships). The highly selective schools don’t have to offer that level of incentive to their top 25% because the demand is so strong for admission. They will fill up regardless of the economic incentive. I recently read a book on this topic (wish I could remember the name) written by a former Admissions Director and Financial Aid Director.</p>
<p>Fenway–great point about minimizing the potential for transfer by looking for every possible school that meets son’s criteria. These would, I think, include schools where he might not do his sport at all. I also appreciate your advice to visit as many schools as possible as early as possible as surprising possibilities may open up. </p>
<p>Swimkidsdad–Righto about the Ivies–I don’t know how anyone gets into those schools without some kind of hook! I’m thinking specifically about D3 schools, where likely letters aren’t at play and coaches just “support” applications.</p>
<p>So…I’ll have one more go, then quit…say the kid has a nice sized list of schools (say the kid can do 3 OV’s and has 6 such schools) where the potential for an OV is good, and the schools are chosen for a wide range of reasons from FA to academics to athletics. What would be the advantage of early, active contact with the coaches at OTHER, D3, schools that the kid might see as “back-ups”? In fact, wouldn’t it be better to express TRUE interest if and when the OV/likely letter doesn’t pan out and the student is seriously looking at other options for the regular admissions cycle? What’s to be gained by pushing the relationship earlier? As you guys have all pointed out, a stronger kid might displace one of ours at any point; doesn’t it follow that our child could be that latecomer that does the displacing?</p>
<p>I understand to branch out and expand the list…no matter how good you might feel about the current “lot”. So lets say at some point son decides he is totally in love with one of these schools…do you tell the coach this, that that is his number one? What if he likes two equally? Do you relay this to the coach and how best to convey this?</p>
<p>Also this is a side question you hear so much about staying in touch with a coach, and keeping in regular contact. Would updating a coach on the current stats of your HS team and maybe including your current most recent grades from a marking period that just ended qualify as a reason to keep in touch? My son asked me this and i wasn’t sure what to tell him. On one hand he does not want to pester the coaches with petty information they don’t care about, on the other if this is what he should be doing then by all means he will…need advice.</p>
<p>@classicalmama…My initial thought is time and flexibility is why you want to approach a coach earlier in the process. You want to give yourself enough time to find another suitable program or situation if things don’t work out at your first choice school…and quite frequently they don’t. If your son was bumped by another recruit the chances are pretty good that he wasn’t going to find the field of play in sports in the first place. A recruit really has to know themselves and their true athletic ability to project the playing time they may receive in college. Sitting the bench for 4 years probably isn’t what most people will sign up for. My son has some former travel teammates that have gone to the College World Series, and practiced with the best players in college baseball. They rarely find the field. Certainly something to think about.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>@momoffour11…IMHO this is one of things you do when you are absolutely sure of the situation. I look at it like a first teenage love. Do they really understand their first love? I know the first school my son fell in love with would not totally suit his needs. It is a great (local) school, but they don’t offer his current major there. They offered him. He loved it, but he had to pass on it. Do I think he would have been happy going there. Probably, but not as happy as he is today. My point is that he thought this was the school for him when we first started the process. After seeing other schools and situations he realized his first love was more of a “crush” for a first time recruit. </p>
<p>I would not tell a coach that you love two schools equally. That is like telling two teenage girls that you like them equally. Nothing good is going to come of that. If your son feels strongly that this is his #1 school, tell them but also ask for a stronger committment back from them. You are effectively negotiating with them at all times. If you are going to give something, you need to get something in return. Coaches like to hear they are your #1 and the schools competitors are below them. Tell them why they are #1. But under no circumstance do you stop communicating with the other schools until you commit, sign an NLI or are accepted.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>@momoffour11…I would update the coach with milestones such as grades, SATS, summer events & calendar, etc… If high school stats are important in his sport then I might depending on the importance.</p>
<p>I have a related question - does having a coach interested in you help you get admitted where otherwise you might not get in, not because your grades and test scores, etc. are not good enough, but because only a small number of applicants gets in? Taking Ivies off the table because they have a whole different way of accepting athletes, what about a school like UVA (IS for us, but less than a third of applicants are accepted overall) or UNC CH (something like 10% OOS accepted because of NC requirements to mostly fill public schools with IS applicants). If you were recruited by their softball coach and you had the grades, test scores, extracurriculars to get in but because of the numbers, might not be one of the lucky ones, could having the coach wanting you make a real difference?</p>
It is the coaches recruit not the school. I personally know some baseball recruits (flown in from CA and TX) that made Ivy OVs who were not accepted by those Ivys. It happens as fogfog had a similar situation with Gtown. What the coach wants and what Admission’s want can be two totally different things. Admissions will win that battle every time. </p>
(I suppose the other factor is that while Ivies are always a reach for everyone, my kid’s school has excellent admit results with top D3 schools, without the athletic boost, so our situation may be different from most…)</p>