ASU Barrett vs. U of Miami?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi everyone, </p>

<p>I'm having a problem with my son where his list is getting smaller and less practical! He is really only interested in "a top school," most specifically Stanford or Duke, though he is including all the Ivies and now Rice in his list. We really need to include more safeties and matches, but now my son wants to eliminate the University of Miami (a match) from his list because he thinks his only safety, Barrett at ASU, is "better" than Miami, and if he had to choose between the two he would just take Barrett. He thinks that Barrett is better academically, but he does very little research, so I'm not sure where he's getting that info.</p>

<p>I personally would be fine with either Barrett or U of Miami for him, if he doesn't get into (or we can't afford) his top choices, however I don't think he is actually expecting that to happen. If he is shut out of all the really selective schools he wants to apply to, I would still like him to have some choice about where to go, and U of Miami has some really great things about it (medium-sized university, great campus, diverse student body, fantastic weather, beach, etc), and there is a chance that he could get a good merit aid package there. </p>

<p>We spent a long day visiting ASU and Barrett last Friday, and they are definitely doing a great job at Barrett. It will probably be the most affordable of all the schools for us too. But I want him to have choices and I'm not sure he will truly be happy with that outcome, especially if it becomes his only option.</p>

<p>Does anyone have thoughts on this? I'll post all of the schools currently on our list in another thread later, I'm just wondering if you all think that Barrett is really better than U of Miami and it would be reasonable to have Barrett as the only safety?</p>

<p>Thanks! :)</p>

<hr>

<p>Chris' stats:</p>

<p>GPA: 3.94 unweighted/4.46 weighted
SAT: 720 reading, 800 math, 730 writing
(He took 2 SAT subject tests on October 11 in Math2 and Spanish, waiting for results)
Current classes: AP Calculus B/C, AP Spanish V/IV, AP English Lit/Comp, AP Psychology, Anatomy and Physiology
Extracurricular: Varsity Soccer, Varsity Wrestling, Varsity Track, Prefect (student leader at his boarding school), School Tour Committee, Math Team, Debate Team, Creative Writing club, Head Writer for the Yearbook club. He an aspiring writer and has written a 250-page novel, he is fluent in Spanish, and was part of a teenage community volunteer service in our town for years. And we are residents of Arizona.</p>

<hr>

2

<p>If there is no circumstance where he would choose Miami over ASU, what is the point of applying to Miami?</p>

3

<p>That is his point exactly…I’m just not sure he would feel that way if Miami and ASU were truly his only two choices. He is just not understanding that he could actually be shut out of all the selective schools and have to make choices between “lesser” schools. Having only one option would be a real bummer, so I’m trying to set it up so he still has choices to make if it comes down to that situation. </p>

<p>One problem with Miami is that to be considered for the top scholarships, you have to come to Miami for an extended interview process that goes on over a special weekend in March or April. Attending the weekend would cost us a lot of money and if he’s not really serious about the school, it doesn’t make sense. But without a top scholarship (full tuition ideally) we might not be able to afford the school. So it’s a bit of a catch-22 for us anyways. </p>

<p>I’m trying to find more safeties and matches to add to the list. Ugh, this is so hard, and time is ticking away!!!</p>

4

<p>Is he interested in UA as well as ASU? Seems like an obvious second safety at in-state costs.</p>

<p>From what you describe, Miami seems like a lot of work and cost to apply for the top scholarship that he may not get, so it is probably harder than you think it is to become an affordable option. If he is not really interested in it, it does not seem like it is worth the bother.</p>

5

<p>I am very knowledgeable about Miami and only somewhat knowledgeable about ASU.</p>

<p>Personally, I like Miami better as a school. They are really a small school with a LOT of offerings that you would normally only find in big state schools. I also LOVE, LOVE< LOVE, the location of Miami and the weather over that of ASU. However, there are other considerations.

  1. What are his interests? What does he want to major in? Normally, since you are Arizona residents, I would pick ASU hands down. HOWEVER, Miami has been very good at giving some top scholarships even if you don’t show up for an interview. Have you considered University of Alabama? They offer some great scholarships for high SATs.MY feeling is to apply to both ASU and Miami and see which schools gives the better financial deal.</p>
6

<p>Thanks! He wants to go into Computer Programming (Computer Science major I guess?), with a minor in Business. He’d like to work somewhere like Microsoft I think. Ideally he would like to go to school in the San Francisco area (Stanford is his top choice) and work in the tech industry there. </p>

<p>I like Miami a lot too, and I wonder if he would be more interested if he ends up with few choices. I suppose it doesn’t hurt to apply but maybe not go to the weekend interview and just see what they offer him without it…</p>

<p>He won’t consider Alabama, though I really like what they are offering to honors kids there. I think he would definitely prefer ASU Barrett over Alabama. We don’t really like U of A for him because we live in Tucson and he’s just so burned out on Tucson, going to college here would feel really anti-climactic for him. And honestly, I know this is shallow, but the dorms, neighborhood, etc, at ASU are just so much nicer. We were there on Friday and we were both really impressed with how modern, clean and nice everything was. Considering the size (enormous) of the school, ASU is really doing a great job. </p>

7

<p>If you can’t pay for Miami w/o a full tuition scholarship, how will you pay for a top school? Are you expecting a lot of need-based aid? Have you run the NPCs at various schools? I’m not really understanding because the need-based aid at Miami is not bad, so if you need a big merit award to attend, that suggests you don’t qualify for huge need-based aid. Or is it that you will only pay the big sticker price if it’s a top school?</p>

<p>D was similar to your S, different ECs but similar stats. Her merit award with acceptance at Miami was just under $30,000 and they tacked on some need-based grant money in FA package which the NPC had not predicted and really surprised us. She chose another school early so didn’t attend the Singer/Stamps weekend. But I’ve heard that attendees get a bit of extra scholarship money to compensate for the cost and time of travel even if they aren’t chosen for the top $$.</p>

<p>He should visit Miami or Bama or elsewhere if there is a way to manage it. This is more important than visiting top schools, which can be done later after any acceptances. I see it happen often in our community that kids apply to prestigious schools widely and to one or 2 safeties as an afterthought at parents’ or GC’s suggestion, but with no real thoughts of attending. Then always a few of them are shut out of all their top choices, or find them unaffordable, and are left with unpalatable options. Make sure he understands this. He needs to have academic/financial safeties that he will be happy to attend. If he will genuinely be happy at ASU, then that is fine. Still, it is better to have 2 schools like that so there is a choice in case he gets unlucky with the lottery schools.</p>

8

<p>@celesteroberts‌ , You are right, we really need merit-based aid. The problem is our financial situation is complicated and we are not likely to get a lot (or any) need-based aid. Still, I am rather broke and paying more than about 20k per year would be a major hardship for me. (I’m divorced and will be paying the whole cost by myself, though the ex’s income as well as his wife’s may still be counted against us, unfortunately.) </p>

<p>We visited Miami about two weeks ago, and we both liked it a lot. :slight_smile: It’s just that my son is not being realistic about the whole process. I get the feeling he will feel really bad about himself if he is not accepted at what he considers a “top school” and he will be really upset with me if he is accepted and I can’t afford to send him. :frowning: </p>

9

<p>Sounds like he’ll be upset no matter what. But less so if he has actual choices in the end. You’ll have to force the issue unfortunately. We also qualify for little need-based aid. Not quite zero, but anyway can’t afford the top schools. D was not shut out of top schools, got into 1 of the 2 she applied to, but luckily chose Barrett herself instead(not from AZ though). We had told her we’d pay for the top 20 schools somehow, but I’m not sure how we would have managed it. Now with the younger one a HS senior, we have a clearer eye about college finances and he understands very well that any apps to top 20 schools are just for his own vanity, to be able to say he got in, since we can’t pay. So he has 2 assured high merit schools to choose from that he is very comfortable with and a couple of others that he isn’t so happy about, but they are in the mix anyhow at my insistence.</p>

<p>A CC mom with whom I was recently talking about applying to Bama drew my attention to their CBHP, computer based honors program. It’s not reserved for CS kids, but should be particularly attractive to them. And there is the possibility of extra scholarship money for the top kids also. In case your S changes his mind about them.</p>

<p>Anyway good luck. This is a grueling process. Even if you are swimming in money, still have to worry about getting in to a place that suits well. And if money is a concern, as it is for so many of us, that adds hugely to the stress.</p>

<p>Also, if you need to persuade him to apply to more merit possible schools, have to pay attention to deadlines. Some have 11/1 or 11/15 deadlines for scholarship consideration or scholarship apps. GTech is already 10/15. Can’t really wait until he comes around on his own. Have to get him to understand now.</p>

10

<p>Great points, thanks! I keep hearing fantastic things about Bama, maybe I should try again to convince him. Yes this is exactly the situation we are in…even if he gets into a top school (and that’s a big IF), I don’t know how much it would cost or if I could afford it. He is under the impression that the top schools are automatically inexpensive for middle class families, but I’m not really seeing that, running the NPCs.</p>

11

<p>I’ve heard the NPCs don’t work as well for divorced families,self-employed and some others. For us, most of them were spot on, as our financial situation is very simple. You could call the FA office at a couple of the schools to ask if the estimate is reliable for someone in your situation. Or start a thread about it. There are a lot of really knowlegeable folks here. Someone was saying a couple of days ago in a thread that UChicago no longer considers NCP income, and mentioned a couple of other Profile schools that do something similar, maybe don’t consider stepparent income, but only biological parent money? Can’t recall where I saw that. Those might be places to be sure to apply to if it’s true.</p>

12

<p>LOL, I’m divorced and self-employed! I think we are going to just have to put in a lot of applications and see how it all plays out. It would be great if NCP income was not included.</p>

13

<p>^Then have him apply to UChicago as, if he does get in, it may be the only “top” school you’ll be able to afford.
Tell him he can have that one because they don’t request NCP info (let him draw the inference.)
I want to add that if he can’t go for financial reasons, it won’t be <em>your</em> fault so he shouldnt be upset with you, but rather with his Non custodial parent who won’t pay what he’s supposed to.
Chris has a fabulous profile but you’re right, he needs two safeties.
Time to pull the “mom” card; tell him he MUST apply to two more schools beside ASU Barrett (I have a feeling Chris will see as safety what may be a match… you could even say one more match with competitive merit, and one safety with automatic merit.) Tell him he must apply to schools where he’ll get assured merit aid. It can be Bama Honors + CBHP, it can be UMiami, it can be Truman State, it can be Pitt, it can be another school that he finds and where his stats would bring big scholarships, but tell him it’s his responsibility to find two schools where you know right off the bat he’ll get in and will get sufficient money if you are to pay all these app fees to all these ultra-selective schools where any candidate only has a 1 in 20 chance of admission.
(He’ll probably say you’re ridiculous and will complain to his friends, but in the end the best outcome is that he indeed didn’t need these schools because you’ll get great financial aid from the schools he got admitted to. But as the parent, you have a Plan B.)
Do promise you won’t force him to attend if he gets into anywhere else affordable (don’t do something that I’ve seen, ie., tell the kid to apply to a financial safety, then when all admissions are in, tell the kid you don’t want to pay more than what the safety costs, even though you could pay for Dream School out of pocket… This to me is a betrayal of trust, turning the “what if” school into “I won’t pay for anything else”. Please note however the “if affordable”.) You can say you want him to get into at least 2-3 affordable schools, as early as possible. Your prerogative as mom, and as the person who’ll end up paying and who is currently considerably stressed out by the process. :)</p>

14

<p>@MYOS1634 Thanks for the great advice! He actually likes U of Chicago (though I know its another reach), so he will definitely be fine putting it on the list. I also just talked to him and he is fine putting U of Miami back on the list. I know he is not understanding the situation realistically, so I’m thinking we just need to apply to a whole bunch of schools (many of which might have some chance of merit aid) and then see what kind of offers he gets. </p>

<p>Right now I have around 20 schools on the list, which is certainly too many. Anyone have thoughts on which ones might not have merit aid and should be eliminated? (I’m not super clear on which are reaches and matches on some of these.)</p>

<p>Super Reaches: Stanford, Duke, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Dartmouth, U of Chicago, Harvey Mudd</p>

<p>Reach/Match: USC, Swarthmore, Rice, U of Rochester, Claremont McKenna, Occidental</p>

<p>Matches: Davidson, U of Richmond, U of Miami, U Pitt</p>

<p>Safety: ASU Barrett, U of Alabama Honors (computer science program) </p>

<p>Is there a shot at some decent merit aid in there? Anything I should just eliminate?</p>

<p>Thanks! :)</p>

15

<p>Oh, and what about Georgia Tech? He could apply early action (by this Weds 10/15!) if there was a chance at merit aid. He does have an 800 on the math portion of his SAT and he’s now decided he wants to major in Computer Science, so it might not be a bad choice for him.</p>

16

<p>Look it up. GT has some full rides and also full tuition. It’s very competitive, but definitely worth a shot. He needs to write amazing essays to make the first cut in the competition, so have him start now. It isn’t just about stats and activities.They want kids who present and interact well and can represent the university.</p>

<p>HM has $10,000 scholarships. Chicago has some in the same range. Be sure to apply to Chicago EA. It’s non-restrictive and chances to get in are much better than if you wait for RD. They’ll ask for copies of your tax forms for the past 2 years and you can get a good early read on FA from them. </p>

<p>Not familiar enough with the other schools to comment. Seems I always hear people talking about merit at Pitt.</p>

17

<p>

</p>

<p>Run the NPC on each school, with the following bewares:</p>

<ul>
<li>Unless the school explicitly states that NCP information is not used (e.g. Chicago), or uses only FAFSA (no CSS Profile or other forms), include the NCP’s household income and assets.</li>
<li>Do two runs, one with the usual income from tax returns, the other with self-employment gross income before any self-employment related deductions, and assuming gross income on the high end. The second run will be a “worst case” financial aid scenario.</li>
</ul>

<p>Eliminate those schools where there is no chance of sufficient financial aid and there are no in-reach merit scholarships that are big enough. If the NCP will be uncooperative with the NCP forms, eliminate all schools which require that, unless there are in-reach merit scholarships that are big enough.</p>

<p>Make sure that he sees the NPC results, and that you clearly state what you actually can contribute to his education. Better for him to face the let-down now while there is time to adjust to application list than to face the let-down in April.</p>

18

<p>As an initial talking point to encourage him to broaden his view of what a top school is, you might try discussing with him:</p>

<ul>
<li>The US News rankings of top CS programs. The Ivies do not dominate the top of the list, and many state schools make a strong showing</li>
<li>This list of top Ph.D.-producing schools. <a href=“The Colleges Where PhD's Get Their Start”>http://www.thecollegesolution.com/the-colleges-where-phds-get-their-start/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
</ul>

<p>And I agree that he should be made aware of the financial implications of each school on his list. Discuss the NPC results and try to steer him toward focusing his reach-school efforts on schools that will be financially in reach if he <em>is</em> admitted. That should start to narrow the list to a more efficient shortlist.</p>

<p>Finally, as a self-made tech industry success who never took a single CS course in college, I can attest that the tech industry is fundamentally a meritocracy. A prestigious degree may get your foot in a few more barely-ajar doors than the average applicant, but you still have to pry the door open with your skills. </p>

<p>I interview applicants for tech jobs on a regular basis, and the focus is on posing problems to them and watching them demonstrate their aptitude for doing the work. I’ll take a 'Bama grad who answers a question by describing the algorithms they’d use and then says “Would you like me to show you the implementation?” over a Harvard grad who immediately fills two whiteboards and gets so bogged down in the implementation details they have to ask “What was I doing again?”</p>

<p>That’s not meant as a stereotype of those two schools, merely as an illustration. </p>

<p>How you think matters far more than who taught you to think. </p>

19

<p>

My heart really goes out to you because your son is just being unreasonable on 2 counts. First, his college criteria seems to be simply “prestige” since I find it hard to imagine someone finding a fit in the rural LAC-like setting of Dartmouth would be equally happy at urban Harvard, to give one example of differences. As such, his criteria reflects a serious lack of understanding of how kids find and grow careers in our economy, as post #17 shows. </p>

<p>Second, you have probably explained to him that these schools are not affordable unless they give merit aid since in Arizona courts can not require non-custodial parents to contribute to the child’s education but most colleges are not so forgiving. Does he really think that the schools listed above are so hard-up to find good students that they have to give discounts to persuade them to enroll? </p>

<p>You probably can’t change his mind, but perhaps you can change his behavior. Get him to put some skin in the game. For each college that seems to be a reach or super-reach, let him pay the application fee out of money he goes out and earns himself (no cashing in savings). I see $1,000 of vanity spending here alone, money he expects you to pay without complaint. I suspect you have better uses for $1,000. He might not be happy about it, but once he starts sharing in the burden he may reconsider where he wants to apply.</p>

<p>Or, you can spend $1,000+ to put off the reckoning to another day.</p>

20

<p>None of the “super reaches” give merit aid, except Duke with the Robertson but it’s incredibly difficult to get.
Essentially, top 25 universities don’t need to entice students with money: thousands flock to them without any need of financial enticement, all more qualified than the previous one. Merit aid is common at universities ranked 40+ or LACs ranked 30+. However, you may need a full tuition scholarship and the pickings become even slimmer.
Right now, it’s possible Chris will get into some of his “reach” schools, but if the NPC is taken into account, you’re unlikely to be able to afford the price tag purely on need-based aid, which all of the super-reaches would involve, as well as many reaches.
Make sure Chris understands you can afford 15-20k out of pocket and the rest would have to come from his father and/or grandparents, and if they don’t add the rest of the money, he’ll have to walk away from these offers. Specify schools don’t give financial aid based on what you think you need, but on what they think you need.
Follow UBCAlumnus’ formula to see you best-case scenario and worst-case scenario EFCs.
Add match and safety schools. If financial aid comes through at Stanford or his other top schools, then he’ll joke his mom was a worrywart. But if financial aid doesn’t come through, he won’t be stuck or shut out. He’s worked hard and if he makes a good list, he could enjoy a great college experience and a wide array of choices. </p>