Athletic Life in College: The Football “Scene”

College Search & Selection
61

<p>Hawkette: The point that I think that you are missing here, is that football excitement only applies to a certain group of schools. Hopkins, as Corbett explains, has its sports excitement centered around lacrosse. And although the LACS might not seem to have the excitement that the big sports schools do, I can assure you that there is lots of excitement when Amherst vs. Williams, in any sport. And, I can also assure you that those schools take their sports very seriously. I know that football is a big one for them.</p>

<p>Again, I think that your conception that social life centers around football, is true for certain schools, only, and is irrelevant to the bulk of the top schools, both university, and lac. Athletes at all schools, however, find their personal experiences very important in terms of their own social scenes. The rest of the student body gets involved when they have a champion team to root for, as does Hopkins when it comes to lacrosse. </p>

<p>There are many other experiences in college that account for a great social life. Students who go to school in a major sports city...NY, Boston, Baltimore, which of course, has the Orioles, and the Ravens... often go to see the professional teams play, and find it difficult to get invested in watching a college sport, unless that college has a powerhouse team that rallies the entire school and adjoing community. However, thanks for your explanation.</p>

<p>As far as any additional research...It is not my mission to influence cc readers, only to give them information about my own, my children's, and other family members', experiences, and to respond to what I know/believe to be erroneous information. Research is something you seem to like to do, so I will leave that to you!</p>

62

<p>Gabriellah,
I think what you are saying is that it is fun when a college participates in an exciting athletic event and such events can add a lot to a student’s social life and his/her enjoyment of their undergraduate years. I agree.</p>

<p>With specific regard to this thread and in response to your comments above, I have been to several Williams-Amherst sporting events (including a visit not too long ago to a hockey game over Winter Carnival weekend), and I can assure you that this is a vastly different experience than the football “scene” at one of the Division I scholarship schools. I’m not missing anything, but I think that those students who myopically focus on colleges in the Northeast and have never seen a real football “scene,” could be missing something. Even many students who don’t like sports often find themselves having a terrific time enjoying the “scene” that goes along with some big-time college sporting events. It is different. </p>

<p>If you liked the vibe and the excitement and the student energy (and maybe even the tailgates and the parties and the pageantry) of the men’s lacrosse Finals weekend involving Hopkins, imagine having this over 5-7 weekends in the Fall alone (and on an even larger scale at some schools). The big-time college football “scene” is something that a lot of folks in the Northeast are not very familiar with, but really enjoy it when they taste it. </p>

<p>So IMO, understanding the difference in the athletic “scenes” is important for a student. Such a “scene” will not be for everybody, but for many students and alumni, this athletic “scene” will often serve as a lasting connection to a college throughout one’s life. And may even give you a reason to smile and laugh and remember when ESPN is showing the highlights of a great and fun college football game involving your school. (And if you don’t believe me, ask some Cal Bears fans.)</p>

63

<p>Speaking about sports, some of you who are interested in Hopkins, and who are sports minded, might be interested to know that Hopkins' head lacrosse coach, Dave Pietramala, threw out the first ceremonial pitch at Oriole Park/Camden Yards, on September 7th. This was part of a pre-game event at Camden Yards, which honored the Hopkins' men's 2007 NCAA Championship lacrosse team.</p>

64

<p>Hawkette: I see.Your concern for ..."students who myopically focus on colleges in the Northeast..." prompted you to create this thread. And here I thought that what you were presenting was just for the fun of it!</p>

65

<p>Gabriellah,
Of the 28 colleges that I have been tracking for this thread, 13 are located between Washington and Boston. It is quite possible, if not likely, that many high school students from the Northeast may never have experienced the different athletic “scene” offered at the Division I scholarship schools which are ALL located outside of the Northeast. Naturally, those NE students gravitate to what they know and, hence, my comment on the Northeast. I will add that those in the West, the South, the Southwest, and the Midwest have similar predilections to lean to what they know, but their universes have a broader range of collegiate athletic environments and students in those regions are likely more familiar with the more active athletic “scenes.” </p>

<p>Hopefully, this thread broadens one’s knowledge of what happens week in and week out on a college campus in the fall and helps them understand the differences in undergraduate experiences at a range of colleges in a variety of regions and with a variety of athletic cultures. Some will like it, some will not, some will be intrigued, some will not. But I expect that they will know more about what the athletic life is on a selected college campus and how this might be an important factor for the individual student in his/her college search.</p>

66

<p>Ok, Hawkette. To that extent, a valuable thread.</p>

67

<p>
[quote]
Taking an average of all of these games, you get 3728 fans which produces a ratio of 0.83.

[/quote]
OK, let's assume that last season's record-setting lacrosse playoff attendance in Baltimore had nothing to do with JHU's participation. Even so, the fact remains that attendance at regular JHU home lacrosse games vastly outnumbers the attendance at JHU home football games. Using football game attendance to evaluate the impact of athletic events at JHU would be like using lacrosse game attendance to evaluate the impact of athletic events at Notre Dame.</p>

68

<p>
[quote]
With specific regard to this thread and in response to your comments above, I have been to several Williams-Amherst sporting events (including a visit not too long ago to a hockey game over Winter Carnival weekend), and I can assure you that this is a vastly different experience than the football “scene” at one of the Division I scholarship schools. I’m not missing anything, but I think that those students who myopically focus on colleges in the Northeast and have never seen a real football “scene,” could be missing something.

[/quote]
Neither Williams nor Amherst is particularly noted as a hockey school. Their principal athletic rivalry -- which began in the 19th Century, and which is still played on the same 19th Century fields -- is football. </p>

<p>The annual Williams-Amherst game can attract attendance in excess of 13,000. Williams enrolls only about 2,000 undergrads. So if we use the hawkette ratio of attendance to current enrollment, this game clearly generates a pretty high value (say 6 to 7).</p>

<p>But there's another, even more interesting way to look at it. When the hawette ratio climbs well over 1, obviously most of the crowd has to be non-students. The non-students could include alumni, or perhaps other college sports fans. But college football in Division III (as opposed to Division I) attracts little interest among the general public, so it's likely that most of the non-students are alumni and their families. </p>

<p>Williams only generates about 500 new alumni per year; the total base of living Williams alumni is about 25,000. Viewed in this light, attendance of 13,000 at a single game seems rather impressive. </p>

<p>High values of the hawkette ratio tend to reflect alumni interest in games (rather than student interest). So maybe an alternative stat would be the ratio of attendance to the number of current and former students (not current students alone). By this standard, the Williams-Amherst game may well outperform more famous matchups involving much larger universities.</p>

69

<p>
[quote]
For a single home athletic event last year, the biggest draw relative to student body size probably involved Rice. Their home football game vs U Texas drew 40,069, producing a ratio over 13 times the college’s undergraduate enrollment.

[/quote]
But realistically, does this amazing figure truly reflect intense interest in the game on the part of Rice students and alumni? Or could it actually reflect interest on the part of the vastly larger U Texas fan base?</p>

<p>Here's a clue, from an AP [url=<a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/recap?gid=200609160081%5Dreport%5B/url"&gt;http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/recap?gid=200609160081]report[/url&lt;/a&gt;] on the game:
[quote]
Though the Longhorns were the visitors, all but one section of the occupied areas of Reliant Stadium were filled with orange-clad Texas fans.

[/quote]
This is an example of how the hawkette ratio can be misused. hawkette suggested that I exaggerated JHU's draw of 52,000 lacrosse fans in Baltimore -- yet I'll bet that most of the fans in M&T Bank Stadium were, in fact, rooting for JHU. The crowd that Rice "drew", on the other hand, was really there to see Texas.</p>

70

<p>Corbett,
The "hawkette ratio," huh? I'm honored. Move over Bill Sharpe.... :)</p>

<p>Hey, I like Willams and have nothing against the school and I'm glad that they had good attendance for their game against Amherst. However, you are again be overstating the attendance. According to the publicly-available, official box score, the actual attendance last year was 6000 (game was at Amherst) and 10,496 in 2005 (game at Williams), both still good scores on the hawkette ratio. These attendance numbers represent their biggest athletic event of the fall, but I'll let the reader compare the "scene" at a Williams-Amherst game to that at, say, a Northwestern-U Michigan game (47,000 or 110,000 depending on the site of the game) or a Stanford-Cal game (70,000+ at either college) or other big games involving many of the other colleges. </p>

<p>Over the course of the fall, I think (hope!) that readers will get a much clearer picture of what happens week-to-week on Football Saturdays at these Top 30 national universities. Some students may really get turned by the athletic "scene," some may not, but to deny that there is a difference is not accurate and perhaps a function of not having been exposed to the exciting athletic "scene" offered at some of the Division I scholarship colleges. I think that those who have seen both understand the difference. And for those who have not, perhaps this thread will give them some information to help make that judgment and get a better understanding of how athletic life affects the feel of a college campus and shapes the social life for a large part of the fall semester.</p>

71

<p>I know that Corbett is making valid points. Hawkette, too, does demonstrate the excitment generated by Saturday football. But, I think that most college applicants, and certainly those who apply to the top schools, full-well understand the impact of those fall Saturdays at certain schools. And, I do not think that listing the scores will change college applications, one bit.</p>

<p>I do think that Hawkette is trying to influence the CC public to look at schools other than the top schools in the northeast, which I do not understand, as students applying to top schools have a pretty good idea of what is going on out there. I do not think that these kids and their parents are at all "myopic." I do, however, get a tremendous kick out of how hard Hawkette tries to make her points...And, trust me...there is a point, here. </p>

<p>Hawkette...Do you really think that it is necessary to educate the cc public in this area? Don't you think that anyone who is interested in a particular school is already following those sports stats?</p>

<p>Corbett is 100% correct about the audience who is in attendance at the Hopkins lacrosse games. Hopkins is a TRUE sports powerhouse, in terms of lacrosse, and Baltimore is a TRUE Hopkins lacrosse town. The huge numbers that show up at the lacrosse games are Hopkins' fans...big time. I am not so sure that you can definitively say that for all the schools listed.</p>

<p>Attendance at football games is no more a barometer of school spirit than attendance at any other school which has an indigenous powerhouse team, such as lacrosse at Hopkins. So right, Corbett.</p>

72

<p>I understand Hawk's viewpoint and I certainly understand why some people believe that big-time college sports is a must attribute for their college experience ... it is a GREAT experience.</p>

<p>I am a total sports groupie and I believe other sporting experiences can also be GREAT ... with some different drivers of the experience. The Amherst-Williams game is a great example ... the crowd is definately smaller and level play lower than a USC-Texas game ... but as a student you are much more likely to know a lot of the players, to be closer to the action ... and are likely to experience just as much pride for your school and the athletes representing the school. Amherst-Williams ... USC-Texas ... both are great; just a little different.</p>

<p>While these are both pre-college experiences I had two absolutely wonderful sports experiences last winter. I have gone to youth, middle school, HS, college, and pro sports including regular season, play-off, and champions ships games ... and these 2 experiences were among the best ever.</p>

<p>First, my local HS won an absolutely thrilling double overtime game filled with amazing twists and turns as the 4th quarter, first overtime, and second overtime played out. For the 500 or so people in the gym it was a thrill to watch ... especially knowing half of the players to some degree (the guys on the teams for which you were rooting). After the game ended the guys from my HS had thrown themselves into a well-deserved pig pile at center court. My friend turned to me and said "what a great game" ... my response was something like "it sure was and better yet tonight there were probably 100 HS bball games somewhere in the US which were just as terriifc ... with players absolutely busting their butts and the fans going nuts ... what a great thing!". FYI - there was nothing resembling a NBA player involved in the game .... frankly I doubt there was anyone who would end up playing DI in college ... it did not matter ... 2 teams; 2 rivals playing their hearts out in a great game.</p>

<p>An even more obscure example. I was witness to the girl's 7th/8th team from my kids K-8 school playing and winning a triple overtime semi-final game in our town's middle school tournament. I have known these girls since kindergarten (they are classmates of one of the 3togo) and I could not have routed harder for these kids playing a mile over their heads and playing as hard as any basketball players ever have ever. I have probably been to 1000 athletic events inclusing USC football games, UNC bball games ... NCAA, MLS, and Major League Lacrosse finals ... NBA and ML playoffs ... and this game with 13 and 14 years olds is one of the best 5 sports experiences I have ever had. </p>

<p>Great sporting events can happen anywhere anytime ... go see whoever is local to you ... and you will see some amazing things.</p>

73

<p>3togo... Oh, yes! Similar experiences, here. And they have all be great! You make an excellent, important point.</p>

74

<p>Gabriellah,
The athletic "scene" is not about the scores-it's about the crowds and the fun and the experience and how this infects a college campus and creates a buzz and adds to its social life. Your continued inability to grasp this makes it abundantly clear that many in the NE don't understand the difference and reinforces the need for this information. So yes, I do think it is necessary to educate the CC crowd about this. And, no, I don’t think many high school students in the NE follow the sports teams or the athletic cultures of various college teams around the country and I strongly doubt that students outside of the NE follow Ivy athletics, but maybe if all had more information, they would better understand the various undergraduate alternatives in and outside of their region and across the various types of schools that make up the USNWR Top 30. </p>

<p>Re Johns Hopkins, you seem to want your school to be considered on par with the other colleges that truly offer a brilliant athletic "scene." Nothing wrong with that desire, and I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but that does not change the facts or the reality that the athletic "scene" at Hopkins differs sharply from the Division I scholarship schools. The facts are that Hopkins averages a little over 3500 per home lacrosse game and a little under 1000 for its home football games. Nothing wrong with that, at least not with me, but it is not the same experience as what a student will have at the Division I scholarship colleges. For some reason, you seem to want readers to think that going to a Hopkins lacrosse game to be the same experience as going to a Pac-10 game at Cal or Stanford or USC or UCLA or a Big Ten football game at Northwestern or a SEC game at Vanderbilt. It's not.</p>

<p>3togo,
I agree with your comments. I just don't think that the experiences and the "scene" that one gets at a high school basketball game is equivalent to what you would get at a Duke-U North Carolina game. And the issue of the "scene" is even more of a factor in football season with all of the tailgates and the parties and the pageantry that accompanies the games with the big marching bands and whatnot.</p>

75

<p>
[quote]
I just don't think that the experiences and the "scene" that one gets at a high school basketball game is equivalent to what you would get at a Duke-U North Carolina game.

[/quote]
They are different and some people may prefer one over the other ... but it does not mean one is absolutely better than the other. </p>

<p>Last year I went to one of the Duke-BC basbetball games ... the first time Duke has ever played at BC. The BC campus was hoping, the arena was filled hours before the game, bands playing, national TV in the house ... the whole bit ... it is a GREAT experience. I am also sitting in row AC and paid a pretty bundle for my seats.</p>

<p>A fews week later I go to the America East playoffs and watch BU play in the tournament. There are many less people and a lot less energy around the game ... and the level of play is not as high ... that is true. It is also true that I paid about 1/5th as much and I am sitting two rows behind the BU bench (and I love being able to hear the coaches and watch the huddles during timeouts, etc), and that I know a couple of the BU kids from when they played HS hoops against my local HS. While the hoopla was not a great there were other parts of this experience that were better than my BC-Duke experience. </p>

<p>Overall, both are great ... different but great. Again, as I said I understand the draw of big-time college sports ... it does create a buzz unlike other sproting environment. I also undersntand the draw of slightly less big-time college sports where one is more likely to know the players and more likely to be in a prime viewing location (and with less of the pro-sports distractions that are invading college sports such as ... sky boxes ... and out of control sports entertainment at the events).</p>

76

<p>Hawkette: Please do remain calm. You are beginning to boil over at a mere difference in perspective. What makes you think that people who see things differently than you do are "myopic?" Or cannot grasp what it is that you are trying to say? Rest assured, we out here in CC land are not as provincial as you would seem to believe. And those of us who reside in the northeast, are anything but. Our kids have wide exposure to virtually everything that is out there, and quite a good understanding of sport, and what that means at a university, or an lac. It is probably true that most of us would not choose our colleges based on it, although some do. Most of us choose on the basis of academics, and what appears to be a good fit. </p>

<p>If one is a great football, basketball, baseball, soccer or lacrosse player, that is quite a different story...and a story I know well, on a personal basis. Also, the high school that my children attended has one of the top ten high school football teams in the US, and consistently sends boys off to DI teams. The players who are top academically (and who do not need scholarship money) will go on to the ivies, or yes, even to DIII teams such as Williams or Amherst over the DI schools. Yes, they will pass up the DI scholarship schools in favor of a stellar academic opportunity, unless they are darn near sure that they will be a drafted player and go on to the pros. Others have gone onto play for those DI scholarship schools, and some have gone onto play for the NFL, and the NBA.</p>

<p>My children attended this school for a total of 16 years. What was it that you said that I don't understand? May I ask on what basis you have ascertained your grasp of the sports scene...not just in one or two schools, but in soooo many? Is it from reading or experience? It would be great for you to elucidate. </p>

<p>Please, before you jump to conclusions about what someone with a different perspective from yours "grasps," know to whom you are speaking. Most of us out here in cc land are fairly forthcoming about the nature of our interest in college life.</p>

<p>Your comment about "hurting my feelings" is kind of ridiculous, don't you think? Using something familiar as one's child's university as a reference point to pose a counter to what you report is something that I call genuine. I try not to speak in nebulous generalities, nor to pretend that I have knowledge of the entire college scene. I speak to you about what I know to be true, and if I have an opinion that is not based on my own knowledge, I state it as such.</p>

<p>You must accept that DI scholarship football is not the only college scene that is social, fun, and spirited. Kids who go to the Ivies, little Ivies; kids who go to basketball schools, and yes, much to your apparent chagrin, kids at Hopkins who absolutely live for lacrosse season, and live for their team's success, are extremely sprited, root for their teams, and love their sports scene as much as anyone...And, BTW...a great high school football game, especially during homecoming is phenomenal, especially when your children and/or his friends are playing.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I speak of Hopkins highly because I know it well and it deserves much praise. Also, I use it as a reference because of my strong familiarity with it. I use it to make a point that you seem not to get...Athletic scenes are different around the country, and certain schools are powerhouses in diverse areas. You seem to think that in terms of spirit, football is the be-all and end-all. I see, again from personal experience, that a school that roots for another sport, especially where that sport is consistently in a championship class, is equally spirited, and (although during a different season) as much fun. Is it ok for me to disagree with you without you getting insulting? </p>

<p>What you seem to forget, because of your (for lack of originality) "myopia," is that we are on the Hopkins pages, speaking to an audience who might be interested in applying to Hopkins. Speaking about what goes on at Hopkins is entirely appropriate, considering our audience. This is the first rule of public speaking 101. And we are "speaking" our minds to those members of the CC public who are interested in what goes on at Hopkins. I am not interested in influencing young people or their concerned families look at this or that, when doing a college search. I am not interested in swaying points of view. I begin no threads to prove any points that might influence the CC audience. </p>

<p>My opinions will generally not appear anywhere but on the Hopkins pages, because it is a wonderful institution, that deserves parental support and praise. I want to share my child's wonderful experiences with anyone who might be interested in the school for his/her own future. To that end, I will not allow purposeful misinformation, or an intentional leading towards a particular biased slant, to go unanswered. Again, we are on the Hopkins' pages, correct?</p>

77

<p>UC Berkeley: 23 National Championships in Rugby since 1980...The dynasty lives on!</p>

<p>Go Bears!!!</p>

78

<p>gabriellah,
I'm boiling over? LOL. And last I checked, we are on the College Search and Selection forum (unless you have gotten CC to change the name to the Johns Hopkins pages). What in blazes are you talking about? </p>

<p>In any event, you continue to misrepresent my comments not to mention your completely false accusations (again! wonderful-thank you) of purposeful misinformation. As with the PA discussions, your efforts to muzzle or discredit comment that conflicts with your opinions are a fabulous failure. Sadly, your defensiveness about Hopkins is unnecessary as it is a wonderful school as you say, but your attitude and approach reflects poorly on the school. Hopkins can stand on its own and does not benefit from your lame efforts to demonize anyone who dare point out facts about the school, such as the average attendance at football and lacrosse games. </p>

<p>Good luck to Hopkins this weekend in their home football game vs Moravian. </p>

<p>UCBChemEGrad,
That rugby record is one of the best in any sport in the country! Also in that neighborhood is the U North Carolina women's soccer team. They have won so many years in a row that I lost count.</p>

79

<p>Hawkette. And you are not boiling over? As usual, you are completely out of line. Your biases come through in each and every post. You are not clever enough to fool anyone but yourself, although you keep on trying.</p>

<p>If you insist, football is the only sport which can rally spirited students...A truly laughable position. However, your figures are questionable, since it is quite obvious that you take everything from written material that you read, then try to twist them to comport with the agenda you consistently push. You have no real-life experience, but yet you try to influence the readership by cherry-picking numbers (as usual) and questionable "facts." </p>

<p>When you can point to real experiences...ie. children who have actually experienced what you purport to be valuable experiences, by all means, let us know. Meanwhile, many of us will continue to wonder why on earth you spout information that is of minimal help to anyone interested in selecting a particular college or university. People who are looking into sending their children to a school, and the kids themselves, want to hear about personal, real-life experiences and opinions, not some hypotheticals based on a clearly biased opinion. That goes for students looking at Hopkins, as well as any other school of interest. </p>

<p>I believe that you lobby for your points of view for some personal reason. It is difficult to believe that you would waste your time on these pages/fora, without a reason. Did you just decide, out of the goodness of your heart to share your (questionable) wisdom? </p>

<p>Meanwhile, I would appreciate it if you would desist from putting down those top rated schools which, for some reason, you have made it your mission to denigrate, while trying to elevate those in which you seem to have a personal stake. </p>

<p>Hopkins is not a football school. Please get it through your head that absolutely no one at Hopkins cares about that. And no one who will want to attend will care about that. Hopkins is, however, an amazing school with a championship lacrosse team that has a great deal of meaning to the students, and to its legions of fans in Maryland.You were also quite dismissive of another poster who attempted to make this point for you. Your figures concerning the numbers of students who attend games is absolutely ridiculous. But you would only know that if you had real personal experience, which of course, you do not. Games are packed and lively, and the highlight of the year, in terms of sports.</p>

<p>I am sorry that you are uncomfortable with my tremedous support and affection for Hopkins. I know that your agenda does not allow for this, and I must frustrate you and your efforts, terribly. I am frankly only interested in one thing...getting the message out to anyone who is interested in the school, that it is a great option, with so very much to offer.</p>

<p>As usual, I find your use of whatever numbers you are using to foster your agenda, offensive. How else can you explain your annoyance at my zeal about Hopkins championship lacrosse team, which, for some reason, you seem to begrudge? You are patently trying to imply that certain schools have this extra-special, magical spirit that is only created by DI scholarship football. Not Ivy football; not DIII football. To quote a very self-important poster, "what in blazes are you talking about?"</p>

<p>While I agree that football is wonderful fun, and very spirited, I resent your usage of the numbers to (most obviously) continue to make your shallow point about what constitutes a great undergraduate experience. And why is it when I explain to you that I have the warranted experience to completely understand where you are coming from, that (to put it politely), you seethe?</p>

<p>I am sorry if you cannot deal with my support for an outstanding institution. Too bad. Your true intentions come through in that last sarcastic wish of good luck. What a truly mean-spirited expression of your thoughts. Let's see if you will be wishing Hopkins good luck during its important lacrosse season. </p>

<p>After all, according to you and the platform you seem to be lobbying for, it does not deserve its exalted place in academia. Your lobbying is most obnoxious. If posting stats concerning wins and losses, and numbers in attendance is the best way you have to spend your time...oh well. But we know that there is much more to this game than you are letting on. People with covert interests have sketchy motives.</p>

80

<p>Gabriellah,
Nice try again. And you’re calling me out of line??? Are you completely daft? </p>

<p>I have written practically nothing at all about Hopkins for virtually my entire time on CC and have nothing against Hopkins or its students (although you’re doing a good job to push me in that direction). Your hyper-ventilating rants and consistently misaimed and bogus attacks have now become quite a source of amusement. (Come on, Professor, is that the best you got? Can’t you sling more mud than that??) Still, I am sure that we are boring the other readers which might have been your objective all along. I don’t know about you, but I am perfectly content for the world to consider our respective posts and make their own judgments about the validity and trustworthiness of our experiences and our comments.</p>