Athletic Life in College: The Football “Scene”

College Search & Selection
81

<p>Should I be concerned about in which direction I am pushing you? Let's face it. You dio not have to be pushed. You have consistently put down all top ranked schools, again, for your particular personal reasons, that will remain hidden. And your calling me "professor"...was I not supposed to pick up on that veiled reference? For the record, I am out in the workforce as are you. Your perspective is not more lofty than mine, not by a longshot. </p>

<p>And, yes. Sometimes I think that I am "daft" to continue to respond to your commentary, which is generally meant to offend. But, let us let it rest, and let the readership decide if you are without agenda, and at all credible as a purveyor of information for college bound students.</p>

82

<p>Hawkette, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you are from Texas. </p>

<p>Gabriellah, in Texas football is king!</p>

83

<p>gabriellah,
Re your reference to my calling you "Professor", on 7-21-07, in a thread about college faculty quality and access to them, you stated in post #11,</p>

<p>"aside from being a parent, I am a college professor"</p>

<p>And, just for the record, I have tried to increase awareness about the high quality of many, many schools across the country. Rather than tear other top schools down as you suggest I have, I think a more accurate description of my posts is that I have made frequent, positive comments about the academic strength of top NE schools. </p>

<p>Perhaps you have misinterpreted my statements that hold non-NE schools in such high (and sometimes equal or better) regard as a slight to the traditional powers. What's more, you may see my contrasts on a set of criteria less advantageous to the traditional powers as a rebuke of those schools. In both instances, you would be wrong. I have great respect for the academic offerings of the Ivies and other top NE privates and have stated so on many, many occasions. However, they do not have a monopoly on great undergraduate college options in America and on that point, I could not have greater conviction.</p>

84

<p>hawkette--you have definitely tried to increase awareness of schools that you favor, many of which are excellent schools, but you really do spend a lot of time making rather thinly veiled negative comments about the Ivies and other schools and you are often illogical and belittle others who don't agree with you. You constantly start threads such as this one, which favor big public schools and a few selected privates, and refuse to acknowledge that (a) football is not the most important sport at all schools and (b) many schools have terrific teams in different sports that elicit vast support and spirit (you should visit Cornell during hockey season--the fans are rabid and the school goes nuts). You make snarky comments about the fact that the Ivies don't start their football season early enough. You demean college administrators who are generally doing their knowledgeable best to answer questions posed by USNWR, as if there was some vast conspiracy out there to ignore certain schools. You gloat over the new WSJ findings for the top M.B.A. schools because they value teamwork and collegiality (and I assume because some of the usual top schools are fairly low in the standings) and you gloss over the fact that these are graduate programs and really don't have much to do with undergraduate education. </p>

<p>I believe that your main point is a completely valid and important one--that many fine schools are being overlooked in the college process and that students and parents should cast a wider net when it comes time to apply to college. I think some of the information you present is very interesting to many people--for example, this thread is probably useful for those for whom the sports scene is an important component in a college choice. However, you oversell your points and your schools in a way that is not necessary. </p>

<p>I think and hope that most of us posting on this forum are trying to be useful to others and so I'm going to apologize if my tone has gotten strident or harsh here or in other posts.</p>

85

<p>Midatlmom,
Thanks for your comments which I take as advice and useful feedback. </p>

<p>By frequently challenging the historical alignment of the academic community, it is no wonder that my comments are seen as anti- those colleges traditionally at the top of the academic pyramid. I don’t expect supporters of the historical elite to blithely step aside (nor is that what I am hoping will happen). What I am hoping is to increase the settings at the table of America’s top colleges as seen by aspiring college students (I don’t have as much hope that academia itself will ever accede to this). </p>

<p>As I and others have noted many, many times, there are large demographic swells impacting college enrollments both quantitatively and qualitatively. This has worked to the benefit of several colleges historically seen as lower on the academic totem pole. Those large numbers of high school graduates, more talented than ever before, have to go somewhere and more and more are considering a broader universe of colleges. The natural result is that student quality has expanded and the competitive/statistical gap between those colleges in the academic hinterlands and the historical powers has narrowed, if not altogether been eliminated. IMO, this evolution in the historical status quo has not been well publicized in the public domain and I doubt very greatly that those affiliated with the historical powers accept many (any?) of these “newcomers” as peers, much less superiors. </p>

<p>As for your specific criticisms noted above, football (and at a slightly lower level, basketball) is the premier sport in college athletics. This thread was not devoted to the athletic success, but rather to the athletic “scene” and how this impacts undergraduate college life. My perception is that this social impact is most frequently supplied by the sport of football for the vast majority of America’s colleges, including nearly all of its premier academic institutions. (I believe that Hopkins and its nationally competitive lacrosse program would be in a very small minority.) But I’m willing to be educated if I have this wrong so if I am incorrect about this, please let me know what sports are more prominent in their social impact at any of America’s top academic institutions and the nature of the “scene” for these sports at these colleges. </p>

<p>Personally, I hoped that this would be an informative thread about the athletic “scene” and how it differs among the USNWR Top 30. I think that it is becoming clearer that it does dramatically (although it is not reflexively tied to undergraduate enrollment as some might have thought). Somehow my pointing out the great social benefit of the major college “football” scene has been portrayed as a negative comment on those colleges that don’t have prominent programs. It’s not, but the differences between these top academic/athletic colleges and the historical academic powers have been presented and that is obviously threatening to some. </p>

<p>Ideally, I would prefer to see the facts disclosed, have people post about their positive experiences at athletic events (football or otherwise, large or small) and let the reader interpret for themselves which environment they would find most attractive. And if posters want to advocate for a school or group of schools (or even for another sport) and help the student understand the nature of social and athletic life at the college, then bring it on. My idea and hope is to provide more information, help the student understand the differences, and then let him or her make his/her decision.</p>

86

<p>
[quote]
your reference to my calling you "Professor", on 7-21-07, in a thread about college faculty quality and access to them, you stated in post #11,</p>

<p>"aside from being a parent, I am a college professor"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>stalker-ish?</p>

<p>I'm with Gabriellah on this one. And I attend a public state school that has a big college football scene--we just played our in-state rival, had over 80,000 tailgaters and only 49,000 could attend the actual game. 31,000 people went JUST to tailgate and be part of the atmosphere.</p>

<p>But outside of the big public state schools and a few privates, football is NOT the biggest sport. A UNC basketball game against a no-name team will get a bigger and more exciting atmosphere than a UNC-Duke football game. Been to both, seen it in person. An Ivy League Lacrosse match will get more attention and parties and excitement than an Ivy League football game. </p>

<p>Heck, at my state school Wrestling draws 5000+ to every home match, regardless of if we're competing against some school nobody's heard of or one of the other top programs in the country. I can almost guarantee you that I could find more students who know the 06-07 Varsity Wrestling lineup (10 guys) but couldnt tell you 10 of the 22 football starters.</p>

<p>Football atmosphere is NOT the end-all, be-all of a good college experience in the athletic scene.</p>

87

<p>
[quote]
the differences between these top academic/athletic colleges and the historical academic powers have been presented and that is obviously threatening to some.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think it's threatening. I just don't think this thread's topic is as important or crucial as you're making it out to be. </p>

<p>Frankly, I don't think there is a worrisome gap between what Top-30-aspiring students DO know about sports/athletics on campus, and what they SHOULD know about sports/athletics on campus. </p>

<p>You've said:
[quote]
So IMO, understanding the difference in the athletic “scenes” is important for a student..... yes, I do think it is necessary to educate the CC crowd about this. . . . maybe if all had more information, they would better understand the various undergraduate alternatives in and outside of their region and across the various types of schools that make up the USNWR Top 30.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not convinced that students are making poor choices based on lack of knowledge about sports culture on campuses. I sometimes worry about the things that students get focused on in their college search, but lack of awareness of just how awesome it can be in the stadium on gameday isn't one of them. I do know that for some this IS a big factor (and Michigan benefits greatly, because sometimes we edge out our competition for good students because they want the "Whole College Experience" including the rabid sports fun); for others, it isn't really. I don't think that's a matter of lack of awareness, but just a difference in priorities.</p>

88

<p>hawkette: you are cherry-picking, again. Yes, I have spent several years as an adjunct professor. But as I have explained to you, this has always been a minor part of my work life. My profession is otherwise. And yes...your behavior and commentary does border on "stalk-ish." It is strange that you have my past posts at your fingertips, or that you would bother to search through them to try to prove your point. </p>

<p>Just a suggestion. Please try not to get so angry, so invested, when people disagree with you. It should have been obvious from the get-go that many people would not agree that football is king at every school. Many schools root for other champion teams, and are not at all that wrapped up in football.</p>

<p>Also, I don't know which book you are getting your numbers from, but I can tell you that I have been at games at several of the the schools that you mention as having low turnouts, and I can assure you, relative to their sizes, schools come out to root for their teams. Just show up at an Amhert-Williams football game, or at a Cornell hockey game, where it almost impossible to get tickets. And, I have been at Cornell during football season, as I have a child who attended, and believe me, they do have their fans. At Hopkins, this is especially true for fabulous lacrosse. Just live with it.</p>

89

<p>Hawkette...And before I go back to work, one curious question that I have often pondered but have not asked you. Why do you seem to have such blatent disrespect for academia? I think that it is odd that someone with such obvious disdain for academic professions would consistently act as though she were extremely interested in college choices. To me it is a puzzling oxymoron.</p>

90

<p>Gabriellah,
Here is how the thread was introduced and also my next comment which was in response to your questioning about why football:</p>

<p>“Undergraduate life has many parts-academic life, social life, athletic life, etc and together these determine the nature and quality of one’s undergraduate experience. For all students (even including those who don’t have a large interest in sports), what happens involving major college sporting teams can have a far-reaching impact on the life and vibe of a campus. </p>

<p>You will definitely encounter different “scenes” at major college sporting events across the country and across the USNWR Top 30 ranked colleges. To help you get a better sense of what the scene will be like at various colleges and how big an event a football game is on a Saturday afternoon in the life of a school, I thought that the following information might be helpful. (FWIW, I care less about wins and losses unless there are truly Top 20 caliber teams involved, but I pay particular interest to the attendance figures to guide me to the importance of the event in the social life of that college)”</p>

<p>and </p>

<p>“Gabriellah,
It’s football season and that is the premier college sport in America, followed by basketball. If you’d like to make an addition to the thread (or even start your own) about the “scene” for other sports, then please join in. The idea is to inform about how athletic life affects the undergraduate life of a college and what a student can expect at a certain college should they matriculate.”</p>

<p>I can live with different ideas from my own. Frankly, I welcome them as it helps inform students of the differences and the pros and cons of various scenes. </p>

<p>As for your stalker charge, it’s called documentation. You said you were a professor in another thread (where you may have viewed being a professor as giving you greater standing in the discussion, which was about college faculty). Then above, in response to my calling you Professor, you state “For the record, I am out in the workforce” clearly rejecting the idea that you are a professor. Furthermore, can you help me understand your statement above, “as I have explained to you, this has always been a minor part of my work life.” I don’t remember any explanation of your work status during our previous exchanges. Perhaps I have forgotten and you can point me to this sharing of information. </p>

<p>As for your challenge on the attendance figures, they are found in the box score which is available for many college sporting events, including all football, basketball, baseball, even lacrosse, games. If you think I’ve got my facts wrong, then please provide some evidence rather than make unsupported and undocumented challenges. </p>

<p>Cards4Life,
You make good points and I have no problem whatsoever with you or anyone else making posts that show how the athletic life impacts a college campus. I hope you will understand, however, that I think a thread devoted to football is likely to attract more interest on CC than one devoted to wrestling. And I do believe that football is the dominant athletic scene at the great majority of American colleges and commonly is the athletic venue that has the greatest impact on the college’s social life. But your comments are welcome and well-made. </p>

<p>Re your experiences at U North Carolina-Duke basketball, I totally agree that basketball is the major sport on these campuses. I loved the old Carmichael Gym (where the women’s team still plays) before the Dean Dome at U North Carolina as the proximity to the floor was much better for the fans. Those ACC games and particularly the U North Carolina-Duke battles are as passionately followed by alumni 50 years removed from the respective schools as it is by the current students. When I talk about major college Division I sports, that “scene” is exactly what I am talking about and can be highly additive to a student’s undergraduate experience and provide a strong, visible (via TV and major media coverage) connection for the alumni to the college. </p>

<p>Hoedown,
I respectfully disagree with your view that all high schools students understand the impact that athletic life has on a college experience. And I definitely doubt that they understand the lifelong connection that a strong athletic life provides (unless their parents went to schools with such programs and they have seen it firsthand growing up). I also don’t think that this is life or death, but it can be a crucial factor for some students in their college search process. </p>

<p>Consider the top student who grew up in New York or New England and attended a St. Paul’s or a Deerfield or some other top high school. He/she very likely has a great familiarity with the Ivy colleges and the major academic powers of the NE. By contrast, they may know a school like Duke more for its basketball and watching them on TV. But as any student or alumnus will tell you, the college is fantastic academically and, as for the basketball, seeing it on TV and seeing it live is a whole different shooting match. </p>

<p>The same could be said for this same student considering an Ivy and a U Michigan or a USC. This top NE student may not ever realize just what he/she might be missing-attending a home game at the Big House or the Rose Bowl IS special and fans from as far away as Dubai ( :) ) care passionately about what goes on there and are connected to these schools every Saturday throughout the fall. </p>

<p>So I’d like to inform students about the impact of athletic life on their college experience. Perhaps there will other threads in the future about basketball and hockey and baseball…maybe even lacrosse and wrestling. The idea is to inform and help students understand the different experiences that these top colleges offer outside of the classroom. </p>

<p>Let me add that I also recognize some students won’t be turned on by a vibrant athletic scene even after being exposed to it. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with that and if others have gotten that impression, then I am sorry. No college scene is for everyone and that includes athletic life. But this thread is about athletic life and about helping students find the right college fit.</p>

91

<p>Having tangled with hawkette in the past, I would be proud to serve as her character witness!</p>

92

<p>Hawkette: I am so done with this conversation. Just don't say anything too self-serving, and let's call it finished.</p>

93

<p>It was a historic day for college football yesterday as, for the first time its 104 years of playing college football, Harvard Stadium hosted a home game under the lights. A good time was had by all on the Crimson side and the 18,898 fans who showed up to enjoy the fun and the scene…and the 24-17 victory over Brown! </p>

<p>Harvard head coach Tim Murphy summed up the “scene” as follows:</p>

<p>“It was a great night for college football,” said Murphy. “The response of the crowd was electric; it was amazing. We saw tons of [former] players who you normally only see for the Harvard-Yale game here today, and they were so excited about the atmosphere so we were really appreciative of the response that the student body and the alumni gave for this game. It was a great night, a fun night.”</p>

<p>Elsewhere, the best game may have been in Winston-Salem. Playing before 31,964 fans and a national TV audience, Wake Forest came back from a 24-3 deficit to beat U Maryland in OT, 31-24. Can the Demon Deacons make it two ACC titles in a row and another major bowl appearance? </p>

<p>Kudos as well to U Michigan which seems to have righted itself with its 14-9 win over Penn State before the consistently eye-popping 111,000+ plus at The Big House in Ann Arbor. </p>

<p>Here is the full rundown on the games yesterday involving schools ranked in the USNWR Top 30 national universities. </p>

<p>College , Opponent , W/L Score , Attendance</p>

<p>MAJOR DIV 1 (Public)<br>
UC Berkeley , U Arizona , W , 45-27 , 56,021
U Virginia , Georgia Tech , W , 28-23 , 57,681
UCLA , U Washington , W , 44-31 , 72,124
U Michigan , Penn State , W , 14-9 , 111,310
U North Carolina , @ South Florida , L , 10-37 , 37,693</p>

<p>MAJOR DIV 1 (Private)<br>
Stanford , U Oregon , L , 31-55 , 35,019
Duke , @ Navy , L , 43-46 , 31,278
Northwestern , @ Ohio State , L , 7-58 , 105,178
Vanderbilt , did not play<br>
Notre Dame , Michigan State , L , 14-31 , 80,795
USC , Washington State W 47-14 86,876
Wake Forest , U Maryland , W , 31-24 (OT) , 31,964
Rice , @ U Texas , L , 14-58 , 84,571
Georgetown (Div I-AA) , @ Holy Cross , L , 0-55 , 5982</p>

<p>IVIES (All Div I-AA)<br>
Princeton , @ Lafayette , W , 20-14 , 8921
Harvard , Brown , W , 24-17 , 18,898
Yale , Cornell , W , 51-12 , 15,427
U Penn , @ Villanova , L , 14-34 , 8,721
Columbia , Marist , W , 31-7 , 3083
Dartmouth , @ U New Hampshire , L , 31-52 , 7145
Cornell , @ Yale , L , 12-51 , 15,427
Brown , @ Harvard , L , 17-24 , 18898</p>

<p>DIVISION III<br>
MIT , Nichols College , L , 28-31 , 478
U Chicago , Macalester , W , 21-13 , 1335
Wash U , @ North Central , W , 16-13 , 1900
Johns Hopkins , Moravian , L , 41-44 , 900
Carnegie Mellon , Allegheny , L , 21-24 , 3322
Tufts , @ Hamilton W 24-7 1307</p>

<p>NO TEAM<br>
Caltech<br>
Emory</p>

94

<p>
[quote]
espectfully disagree with your view that all high schools students understand the impact that athletic life has on a college experience.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You mischaracterized what I said, so its moot whether you disagree respectfully or otherwise. </p>

<p>I have not claimed that ALL high school students understand the impact that athletic life has on a college experience.</p>

95

<p>Adding a new dimension to the stadium experience.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.fanblogs.com/wisconsin/007168.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.fanblogs.com/wisconsin/007168.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/247480%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/247480&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

96

<p>hoedown,
Sounds like I misunderstood your prior comments. If so, sorry. Glad that we agree that some high schoolers lack an appreciation during their college search process for how athletic life will likely impact their undergraduate experience. </p>

<p>Hopefully, this thread is providing information for making comparisons of the football “scenes” and thinking a bit more about college life outside of the classroom. The importance of this will differ from student to student and some schools may have alternate athletic “scenes” (meaning sports other than the biggies of football and basketball) that the student can enjoy, but there is no denying the positive energy and fun that can result on a campus when a prominent college team is performing well and drawing national attention. </p>

<p>Barrons,
Uh, nice links. I particularly enjoyed the reader comments at the bottom…. :o</p>

97

<p>Just goes to show you , there is more to life at UW than studying, sports and partying. The stories I could tell.............................</p>

98

<p>Great article on post college alumni football viewing parties around the US. Not for the Ivy grads.</p>

<p><a href="http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2006-10-31/winchester-footballforalums/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://jscms.jrn.columbia.edu/cns/2006-10-31/winchester-footballforalums/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

99

<p>Wow! What a wild weekend for upsets! Great games galore and great fun at many, many colleges over the weekend. </p>

<p>The big winner of the week among the USNWR Top 20 were the Cal Bears. Now ranked # 3 in the country! Ta-Dah! They host USC in early November and I hear that the lines for student tickets to that one have already begun to form....</p>

<p>The home crowd of the week (60,888) went to U Virginia which stealthily is winning games and may be the team to beat in the ACC. </p>

<p>College , Opponent , W/L Score , Attendance</p>

<p>MAJOR DIV 1 (Public)<br>
UC Berkeley , @ U Oregon , W , 31-24 , 59,273
U Virginia , U Pittsburgh , W , 44-14 , 60,888
UCLA , @ Oregon State , W , 40-14 , 41,137
U Michigan , @ Northwestern , W , 28-16 , 46,604
U North Carolina , @ Virginia Tech , L , 10-17 , 66,233</p>

<p>MAJOR DIV 1 (Private)<br>
Stanford , Arizona State , L , 3-41 , 32,125
Duke , @ U Miami , L , 14-24 , 30,614
Northwestern , U Michigan , L , 16-28 , 46,604
Vanderbilt , Eastern Michigan , W , 30-7 , 37,220
Notre Dame , @ Purdue , L , 19-33 , 62,250
USC , @ U Washington , W , 27-24 , 68,654
Wake Forest , did not play<br>
Rice , did not play<br>
Georgetown (Div I-AA) , Cornell , L , 7-45 , 3184</p>

<p>IVIES (All Div I-AA)<br>
Princeton , Columbia , W , 42-32 , 7926
Harvard , @ Lehigh , L , 13-20 , 9,103
Yale , @ Holy Cross , W , 38-17 , 11826
U Penn , @ Dartmouth , L , 13-21 , 5,929
Columbia , @ Princeton , L , 32-42 , 7926
Dartmouth , U Penn , W , 21-13 , 5929
Cornell , @ Georgetown , W , 45-7 , 3,184
Brown , U Rhode Island , L , 42-49 , 6153</p>

<p>DIVISION III<br>
MIT , U Mass-Dartmouth , L , 14-49 , 375
U Chicago , Lewis & Clark , W , 57-27 , 1077
Wash U , Rhodes College , W , 24-3 , 510
Johns Hopkins , @ Muhlenberg , L , 21-28 , 3528
Carnegie Mellon , did not play<br>
Tufts , @ Bates , W , 35-20 , 1083</p>

<p>NO TEAM<br>
Caltech<br>
Emory</p>

100

<p>Ouch. Stanford is really, really sucking.</p>