@ucbalumnus @proudparent26 Thank you for doing more thorough summary of the facts. I am guilty of grabbing the first links from googling without enough fact checking. My niece is an EE working for a large tech company in SV. The ~ 100 co-workers in her group are all foreign born men, mostly from India. I don’t know their immigration status.
The conversion from H1B to green card requires prevailing wage certification as well as a costly and involved process so I am not sure what is the advantage to the employer. A lot of the H1B people go back home disappointed
@northwesty basically we are talking two sides of the same coin. If you want to enforce a particular composition, you have to mess with the standards.
And I do think it is appropriate for it to be harder for OOS students to get into a school. Residents of the state HAVE to pay taxes - they have no choice. The non-resident families on the other hand can decide whether they want to send their kids to the OOS school and pay the higher tuition.
The logical conclusion IF schools were to reduce their admission standards for OOS students to materially below that for in-state students is the following: many more families end up having to go to OOS schools and pay higher tuition. It ends up being a back-door tuition increase for many students. Of course this is an oversimplified example to prove my point.
@qialah I dont think Berkeley recruits athletes. The kids might be recruited athletes at the Ivies but I do not believe any public institution have the right to recruit athletes, legacies, or donors. If these kids really are recruit athletes at the Ivies, their SAT score + strong sport participation is enough to get in Berkeley.
Yes, it does, quite heavily in some sports, since it is in an NCAA Division I FBS conference.
Lots of public schools recruit top end athletic talent (sometimes at the cost of dipping too far down on their academic preparation levels) – note the preponderance of public schools in NCAA Division I FBS (the strongest athletic division). Some public schools do prefer legacies (e.g. Michigan, Penn State). It would not be surprising if most would be very flexible to those related to big donors, since one seat is a small price to pay for tens or hundreds of millions of dollars taken in.
My bad, my assumption was that only privates can recruit. Do you know how many athletes UCB recruit per year? What percentage of the entering class would they compose of?
This is all for UG Freshmen. Since I don’t think there is PG athletes.
UCB athletic admission policy is that no more than 300 recruited athletes would go through the normal frosh or transfer admission process with their athletic ability listed as a “special talent” (which is not otherwise limited to athletic ability). Those not admitted could be admitted in special admission, but no more than 60% could be admitted this way, declining to 40% next year and 20% thereafter. Even those admitted in special admission are still expected to meet baseline UC eligibility.
This policy is rather new, probably in response to problems with recruited athletes’ academic performance in the recent past, when admission standards for the up to 300 recruited athletes were much lower (up to a third did not need to meet baseline UC eligibility, and they did not have to go through the regular admission process with just the “special talent”).
300 is a little less than 2% of overall frosh plus transfer admits, but their yield is presumably much higher than the overall yield, at least for frosh admits (~40% yield; ~65% for transfers). If all 300 of these recruited athletes matriculate, then they would be around 4% of the total frosh plus transfer matriculants.
@dstark well, I take not getting accepted personally if it “personally” cost our family 30 years of tax paying (x2 as wife has worked entire adult life in CA as well) and then costs me another 100k when “top 9% D” does not get into her top 6 choices for UC schools. I agree that Santa Cruz is an interesting choice. As I mentioned a family friend goes and likes it. But there are a couple of incontestable realities.
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Right now the incoming freshman stats are a bit to very lower than for the other 6 UCs my D applied to. The admission rate is a quite a bit higher. (Not that these stats mean everything, but it’s hard to argue that the student body at SC “on paper” is higher quality than UCB, UCLA, UCSD, UCSB, UCD or UCI.
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It was my D’s last choice, for geographic reason, “vibe” reasons and (I’m guessing) reputation reasons. and that aside from one other student, she doesn’t know anyone going there. (I wish she liked it more, but that’s a different story.)
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UCSC had 2155 OOS and 2484 International in 2014 (out of 18539). UCB had 3071 OOS and 1333 international out of 8391. UCLA 4095 OOS and 2537 international. Davis, Irvine and SD also had over 4000 International with similar total enrollment to SC. The clear message is “SC is “good enough” for CA students, but not OOS/international students” (Riverside and Merced even more so… It is a sham the lower numbers of international students there compared to the other UCs - http://admitguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/UC_Admissions_Trends_2009-20141.pdf They are “good enough” for CA students, but not OOS or international.)
Also, while SC does pipeline some to Silicon Valley it seems not to have happened in a big way yet. Wired did this reports http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/in_schools_f.jpg That show schools feeding “silicon valley” (including Microsoft and Amazon and other “non-Valley” tech. It has UCB, San Jose State, UCLA, Cal Poly SLO and Davis on the list, but no SC.
Business Insider does list SC ahead of Irvine and SLO and SD but behind UCLA, SB, Davis, SF State and UCB fwiw. http://www.businessinsider.com/silicon-valley-hiring-most-popular-universities-2015-7
I think SC - with it’s location and vibe could be a very attractive destination for a lot of students (it is not high on my D’s list and she’s the one that has to go.) but if the idea is to up the level with higher quality students, why should they be from CA and not OOS or international?
The other question has to be why we are selling our most valuable degrees so cheaply. The OOS tuition for Berkeley or UCLA could easily be that of UMich or UVA - and we could easily increase the OOS and international % at Merced, Riverside and SC, while lowering it at Berkeley, UCLA, SD, Davis and Irvine.
The % cap for OOS and international should be per campus, not UCs overall, esp. if the OOS and International stats are not significantly higher than the in state kids not getting accepted.
I am not sure your points 1 and 3 matter as far as a student getting a great education.
Number 2 is very important and can be a game breaker.
That is preposterous. Don’t even have to read the blog to know that to be the case. Just not enough visas to go around.
While many SV workers may be people of (primarily) Asian descent, they are US citizens that just happened to go into Engineering/Comp Sci.
Purple Titan;
Since this thread is about UC, I thought the reference to be obvious…
But back to page 1 of this thread:
The CMP was approved by the Legislature. Of course, UC is a separate legal entity per the state Constitution, but the Regents have to follow the bulk of the will of the Legislature if they want money next year.
Thus, unlike what Northwesty suggested, UC does not have an OOS cap by %.
While I would agree that demand for UCB, UCLA, or UCSD is probably inelastic, I don’t think it would be for Irvine or Davis. You didn’t mention Santa Barbara but I can’t decide which pool it should be in as it’s a beach school that’s attractive in many ways.
I’m guessing Riverside and Merced already get as many OOS/international applications and admits as they could. Emily from Old Lyme just isn’t applying as the campuses Californians despise don’t appeal to her either.
Looking at @CaliDad2020’s number, it looks like only Cal has cut down on the number of CA admits with other UC’s keeping about the same number of CA admits since 2009. All UC’s who could have increased international/OOS admits, so it seems like they are just growing bigger. And I believe that CA’s HS population is plateauing.
@bluebayou, pretty certain that the UC’s instituted a policy capping OOS and international enrollment at the top 3 UC’s recently. @northwesty can confirm.
I was going to drop this because I don’t have time to read all the googlable pages, but according to this detailed report (page 15), close to 75% of tech workers in Santa Clara and San Mateo Counties (computer and mathematical age 25-44) are foreign born. Now whether they subsequently became citizens or permanent residents is not disclosed. But by many definitions I think it is safe to call them “foreigners”. Slightly less percentage in Architectural & Engineering.
http://www.jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/index2016.pdf
Re: #229, #233
Yes, you can mislead and misinterpret a lot if you are not careful about how you write or interpret terms like “foreigner”, “foreign born”, etc.
Re: http://www.jointventure.org/images/stories/pdf/index2016.pdf on page 15
The table of foreign born (which can include US citizens) percentage of employed residents over age 16 in Santa Clara and San Mateo counties:
All Ages 25-44
Computer/Mathematical 67.3% 73.6%
Architectural/Engineering 60.9% 65.0%
Natural Sciences 48.7% 53.2%
Medical/Health Services 41.3% 42.0%
Financial Services 41.5% 45.1%
Other Occupations 42.7% 45.3%
Total 45.9% 50.0%
Next to it is the foreign born share of the total population (meaning including of non-employed people like children, retirees, many students, etc.). In Santa Clara and San Mateo counties, 37.4% of the population is foreign born, versus 34.4% in San Francisco, 27.1% in California, and 13.3% in the US.
@momsquad, so an American citizen who came to the States when he was 2, speaks only English, and is all-American in every way is a foreigner to you?
The point of my argument is that the US is not training enough tech workers to fill spots in Silicon Valley and that argument is somewhat backed by the data linked in #233. I am not intending to cast aspersions on people’s national origins nor devalue their contributions to our country by the work they do here. We need foreign born workers to fill the jobs they are qualified to do, but we as a state and as a country are not providing enough opportunities for qualified students to attain the education they need to fill those positions. Why should Calidad’s daughter have to go out of state to attend a top ranked engineering program? Profitable tech companies could pour money into UC and other campuses to increase opportunities for US born workers in Silicon Valley but we don’t see much of that, with the exception of some generous alumni.
And why is everyone so sensitive to the word “foreigner”? My husband is European and has been a permanent resident for 25 years. He can’t vote, can’t serve on jury duty and speaks with an accent. He considers himself to be foreigner, I consider him a foreigner. He is a professor at a UC campus because no Americans were available to fill that position. In fact, almost every faculty member in his department is a foreigner- as in not born in USA. It’s a simple supply and demand situation. Perhaps the whole current presidential campaign with its vitriolic rhetoric has made people hypersensitive to the word.
@momsquad, a tad. Your husband may consider himself a foreigner, but he likely wouldn’t consider himself one or take kindly to being called one if he is an American citizen who grew up here.
Also, some members of some racial/ethnic minority groups who are native born US citizens sometimes encounter the annoyance of being assumed to be somehow “foreign” even though they are not in any way.
Somebody who is foreign born can be an American. . My dad was not born in America. He became an American citizen.
There are limited spots in these schools. When there are more qualified applicants than spots, some people are going to be disappointed.
@Calidad2020’s daughter got a spot in a Calif school. The spot is unwanted.
The Calidad2020’s daughter did not apply to Cal Poly. Did not apply to San Jose State. Maybe she would have received a scholarship at Santa Clara. If I am wrong, I can be corrected.
There were Calif possibilites that were not explored.
I have been to the Irvine campus. Let me just say, so I don’t offend anybody, Newport Beach is nice. 