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Parents Forum
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<p>Why is there all this talk of "sacrificing" for the kids? Do you "sacrifice" to buy a boat? Retire early? Take a trip to Europe? Give money to good causes? Isn't the money the same whatever way you decide to use it? Of course, for some folks it will be easier, and some folks harder, but I haven't heard any tales of parents selling their kidneys.</p>

<p>(Yet.)</p>

<p>But there are class differences. The student whose parents contribute $30,000 a year toward his education, and has come up with the remaining $48k over four years - some in workstudy, some in summer earnings, and some in loans is in a very different position than the student with the disabled mom with four kids who receives $42k a year, including workstudy, summer earnings, and loans, but can't go because of her lost income to her family (since the workstudy and summer earnings have to go toward tuition.) And every variation in between. I'm sure the first set of parents may have felt they were "sacrificing" (after all, they are shelling out $120k), but isn't that what THEY determined the money is for? (It's a nice position to be in.)</p>

102

<p>Calmom,
I don't recall saying, or thinking, that you wanted your kids at any particular kind of school. That you termed the current middle-class representation at certain schools to be tokenism led me to believe that you felt there should be more middle-class students at these schools, not that you wanted your own children at any particular school or type of school. That you said, in an earlier post, that your daughter "has her sights set rather high for college" and that you were "trying to assemble a good list of less selective colleges and focus on building excitement for the safeties" did lead me to believe that you do indeed...care... where your daughter ends up going to school in a way that seems very much akin to the "goals" of most parents: in the main, to get a good education for their children. Where is there a judgement as to which type of school? For goodness' sakes there are great schools all over the place. Has anyone said otherwise? As to "perfect fit" I don't know that anything in life is "perfect" but that you are getting together "a good list" means that you are somehow finding what "fits" --or works best-- for your daughter and for you. I wonder if what you consider "extolling the virtues of..." is in fact the defense of others to having their own particular college choices without having them assailed. As to social and economic factors, I have every empathy with those, having had to work extremely hard to get through school and to eat. I am a master of pasta 501 ways.
I apologize for misunderstanding you, wherever the misunderstanding has been, and I bid the thread farewell, to make way for posts more inline with the OPs original post, if that is protocol.
(Mini, great west coast/ LAC descriptions on another board. Have forwarded them to my nephew--very helpful, thank you.)</p>

103

<p>Mini asks: "Why is there all this talk of "sacrificing" for the kids? Do you "sacrifice" to buy a boat? Retire early? Take a trip to Europe? Give money to good causes? Isn't the money the same whatever way you decide to use it? Of course, for some folks it will be easier, and some folks harder, but I haven't heard any tales of parents selling their kidneys."</p>

<p>I think the concept of sacrificing for the kids is a value system to a degree. For me, it is part of a culture, if you will, that I grew up in. Doing for the kids was always a priority in my upbringing, as was education. For me, with my own kids, we choose to spend most of our money for things related to our kids. We put that "line item" first, you could say. We try to do whatever we can in that area, sacrificing other things to do so. In terms of their college education, sure, a sacrifice is involved. I can't afford it but I just make it a priority and will find a way to do it. It might mean a lot of debt for years to come and we will sacrifice other things to pay for this. We choose to spend on this. We don't have a boat, nor a trip to Europe. I would say paying for activities and things for our kids, and now for college does involve sacrifice in terms of choosing this over something else. It is not like we are choosing to spend 40 K a year on this vs. a trip, a second home, a boat, etc. etc. We don't have the 40K to spend period. True we are not poor but still we cannot afford college without sacrificing. It will mean paying loans off in future years as opposed to having money to do something else (retire, purchase things beyond the necessary stuff, vacations, etc.). It is not like there is this discretionary pile of money sitting around for this. We have to come up with it and it might mean giving up something else to do so. </p>

<p>You ask if we sacrifice to buy a boat or to retire early. For us, we don't have the money for either and thus to do so, it might mean sacrificing doing for the kids to get that. And that is where certain priorities or values come in and where putting the kids first happens. We would not sacrifice in that area of expenditure.</p>

<p>Sometimes my own mom will question what we do or spend on the kids and will say why don't you do or get this instead. My reply is always that they only have one childhood and I can maybe get or do those other things later (when I pay off all this college debt, lol) but they cannot ever have these years again and thus we prefer to sacrifice other things to put most of our resources to things for the kids. </p>

<p>I have to say that both sets of grandparents also highly value doing things for our children as well as their education and so it is a value judgement. The degree of "sacrifice" might vary from one family of one means to another means but still choosing to allocate whatever funds or to go into whatever debt toward things for our kids, including college educations, involves a set of priorities and a degree of sacrifice.</p>

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<p>I am not trying to pass judgment on anyone let me get that straight, but I try and walk my talk.
If my values are proenvironment, small farm etc, then I try and eat organic, don't use pesticides don't dump my oil down the storm drain :( even if it is less convienent and more expensive. That could be thought of a sacrifice I suppose.
( please lets not get into pesticides that are really helpful cause it allows more efficent planting etc :) )
Same with how I chose to have a family, education is very important, we have passed up moving to big and better house, cars, vacation etc to spend resources on education for the kids. I wouldn't spend money on something like ballet lessons instead of the dentist but once basic needs are met, we probably spend a disproportinate (ach) amount on education ( & books) compared to others in our tax bracket.</p>

<p>I guess I see as my children ultimately as the ones who benefit from their education. hence the sacrifice. If I was the one benefiting, say if I decided to put all that into a houseboat or an early retirement, then the only thing I would be sacrificing would be the chance to contribute to their college education.</p>

105

<p>I'm sure I'm going to ruffle more feathers here -- but here's where I am coming from. I do value education for my kids - very highly. But UC was good enough for me. It was good enough for my brother. It was good enough for my kid's dad, for his brother, and for his parents. My own parents when to private colleges -- but my dad went to Ivies on GI Bill, and my mom's parents were very affluent -- plus college cost a lot less in the 1940's than it does these days. Their parents did not go into debt to support their college educations. </p>

<p>I've done all my planning for my kids with the cost of a UC education in mind. Now my son chose to go to a private college, but he got a financial aid award that covered most of the gap between costs. So I supported him. If that's my daughter's choice, I will support her too ..... but I don't really see why as a single parent it is unfair for me to decide that if my kids want to go elsewhere, it's their problem, not mine, to make it happen. I mean -- I think that I have done my part as a parent in terms of guaranteeing my kids a college education simply by choosing to live in California, where the UC system is backed up by the CSU system, which in turn is backed up by the community college system. Anyone who sincerely wants a college degree in this state can get it. And we all help pay for it with our taxes. </p>

<p>Does my daughter want something else? Yes she does. But the question is whether she is "entitled" to something different simply because she wants it. I am sure that there may be many private colleges that offer her something that is better or more desirable for her than the state university -- but I do not believe that it is $80-$100K better, which is probably what the overall cost differential would be.</p>

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<p>I don't see why that should ruffle any feathers, calmom. Seems as reasonable to me as telling your kid that you'll pay for the basic sneakers and he can cover the dfference if he wants the ones that cost $100. That's what we've always done. He never thought the $100 kind were worth it. Small example, yes. Now he's willing to take on his own debt or try for the alternative grant or scholarship forms of aid to cover the difference between UNC-CH (our state U--lucky us!) and any northern school he might get into. I like the fact that in the realm of sneakers he's as cheap as I am but for his education he's willing to go the extra twenty-five miles.</p>

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<p>my oldest never wanted anything more than the basic sneakers, in fact I had to drag her to the store to even get the basic ones, my youngest wants the basic sneakers but they only can be a certain brand and style, not any more expensive but much more of a pain to track down.
I think just as long as parents are upfront about what they are going to pay for, and allow the child enough time to research other options if need be, then that is fair for everyone. If they want to attend a school that costs more than you want to pay, give them support to search out merit aid, or help them find a comparable school that is cheaper. What I have a problem with , is parents who encourage their child to apply to a school that only has need based aid and is very competitive, they get in, but they then may not qualify for much aid. I don't think good information is getting out to many parents though, I attended a financial aid workshop last night with presenters from American Express and NELA, and the fact that the PROFILE takes many things into account that the FAFSA does not was barely mentioned, and the fact that many schools don't meet 100% of EFC wasn't mentioned at all. I could hardly stand it as you might imagine, I know that many of the students are applying to very expensive schools that don't offer merit, and since the aid awards aren't sent till March, I think parents will be in for a shock with not a lot of time to make decisions.</p>

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<p>Calmom, I respect your choices in this regard. I certainly do NOT think any kid is entitled to college or a more expensive college. It is just a choice. Everyone has different values or priorities of how they wish to spend their income. Some might go for a more expensive college even though it is a hardship or will require debt. Others believe it is the kids' responsibility to pay for college. All views are valid and there are some choices to some degree here. </p>

<p>I certainly agree that a UC school or ANY college is "good enough" for a kid. I don't think a kid is better off necessarily cause they attended a more regarded college, certainly not with respect to some brighter career future or success in life. For me, the reason to attend the schools my kids attend has nothing to do with future career success but more to do with what college atmosphere suits their learning and personal styles, as well as be schools that they have strong desires to attend. I wanted them to have a choice of where to go, having worked hard toward certain goals. I know they could succeed in life if they go to cheaper or less known programs. I just wanted college to be where they wanted and to be schools that truly fit their learning needs. So, we did not figure in the cost only because we want this and will find a way to fund it over the years. They also qualified for some financial aid, not a lot but every bit helps. My oldest had a full ride at our state university and about 50% scholarship at another well regarded school but neither school truly fit what she needed or wanted and again this is a choice we made but fully respect those who would have said you go to the free school, dear. I understand such reasons and find them completely valid. I have made other choices and as mentioned above, some of these choices are a cultural thing from my own background where I, along with my siblings, were allowed to go to any college or grad school we got into and I wanted that for my kids, partiicularly as they worked so hard to attain these goals. One of my kids is applying to specialty degree programs and none of them are cheap but if I did not let her apply to these, that would keep her out of her lifelong passion and chosen career field aspirations. It is going to be a very big financial sacrifice to pay all this off, but it is what we want or have chosen to do. I definitely think others' choices are totally reasonable as well. </p>

<p>Viewpoints such as Calmom's surely do not ruffle my feathers because I really respect those values and choices. I don't think anyone should really judge how others choose to spend their incomes. I know some who make their kids buy their own clothes for instance. I can see the reasoning there. I happen to want to buy my kids the clothes they need and spend a fair amount on that because I really want to. It is kinda a "midway" viewpoint and does not compare to some kids I know who seem to have unlimited clothing funds and designer clothing. My kids get nice clothing and what they need but do have a clothing budget. Each family sets this sort of thing up along the lines of their own values/choices and of course, income levels. One way is not more "right" than another.</p>

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<p>"In terms of their college education, sure, a sacrifice is involved. I can't afford it but I just make it a priority and will find a way to do it. It might mean a lot of debt for years to come and we will sacrifice other things to pay for this. We choose to spend on this. We don't have a boat, nor a trip to Europe. I would say paying for activities and things for our kids, and now for college does involve sacrifice in terms of choosing this over something else. It is not like we are choosing to spend 40 K a year on this vs. a trip, a second home, a boat, etc. etc. We don't have the 40K to spend period. True we are not poor but still we cannot afford college without sacrificing. It will mean paying loans off in future years as opposed to having money to do something else (retire, purchase things beyond the necessary stuff, vacations, etc.)."</p>

<p>I'd do exactly the same if/when called upon, but I'd hardly call it "sacrificing", simply rational choices about how to use past, present, and future resources. I'd do it because it gives me the greatest pleasure of the choices avialable. So, perhaps even "hedonistic" would be a better choice of words. And others might make other choices.</p>

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<p>Mini, I will have to remember that....hedonistic...it works! Sacrifice is probably not the right word. I am often telling my younger D (who is the one who tends not to act as appreciative, whereas the older one is thanking us left and right all the time), that the things we do for her (be it requiring time, money, driving) are all CHOICES we have made and we do not HAVE to do them. They are not in the Parent Rule Book. I often remind her of that so she realizes I CHOOSE to spend my time that way or use our funds for her rather than something else. This "reminder" comes up at times when I hear a complaint ...ie., you picked me up five minutes late.....um, I am driving you 150 miles today where I am devoting 7 hours of my day to you, etc. etc., nothing I HAVE to do but gave you this opportunity to participate in X and this is requiring a great deal of time and money (which I can ill afford right now) on my part....keep that in perspective now. </p>

<p>So, "hedonistic" works....</p>

<p>Also you remarked what was on my mind in my previous post but I did not say it for fear that it might offend in some way because I am not passing judgement on those who make other choices....but I do these things or pay for them as it gives me the greatest pleasure to do so, even if hardship on my part is involved....be it time or money (last week, I was out until at least 1 AM with one child nightly, as well as driving hours per day for her).</p>

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<p>"Also you remarked what was on my mind in my previous post but I did not say it for fear that it might offend in some way because I am not passing judgement on those who make other choices....but I do these things or pay for them as it gives me the greatest pleasure to do so, even if hardship on my part is involved....be it time or money (last week, I was out until at least 1 AM with one child nightly, as well as driving hours per day for her)."</p>

<p>Well, "hedonistic" is a good choice of words because it presumes it gives pleasure in the here and now. If presented with "facts" that said taking the college fund and investing the $168k at 5% over 40 years gives a greater return than sending the kiddies to prestigious schools, we might still do it because it gives US pleasure in the here-and-now. Or, more narrowly, if given the choice between sending the kids to Podunk and investing the $100,000 saved at 5% over 40 years would net a better return, we might still send the kids to prestige city because it gives US pleasure in the here-and-now. And others might make other choices. </p>

<p>And isn't it wonderful to HAVE choices?!</p>