<p>I don’t know how breach of contract lawsuits work at all, but I suppose there are measurable benchmarks that could be drawn. A student with an A in a level 2 class, who was not taught material that is required for level 3? A class where the video taken of the instructor admitting he hasn’t a clue what he’s doing and is forgetful. That gives me another crackpot idea. Maybe students need to record their worst teachers and put them up on Youtube. The embarrassment to the university may just be enough to motivate them to take action.</p>
<p>Oh, I’m full of big ideas tonight. But seriously, what are the consequences to a university who doesn’t improve teaching standards? Seems the bigger rewards come from professors who publish and are members of honored societies.</p>
<p>I second (or third) the suggestion that your student complain to the administration about the prof, even after the class is finished. Back in the day, I had one lousy, demeaning prof. I never complained or took any action and have always regretted this. I don’t know how many students after me were subjected to him.</p>
<p>BTW, some of the best teachers I had were grad students (especially for language) and some tenured profs.</p>
<p>Having a bad professor in a math class is a terrible thing. After the second class with a calc professor this quarter, D quickly transferred into another section since it was obvious the woman was awful. Many of her classmates did the same. Surely after a few semesters universities can track this sort of movement and draw conclusions!</p>
<p>My irritation is when bad teachers are assigned to large intro classes. If someone doesn’t communicate well, they should be assigned to the upper level classes where their research abilities will be more useful to students. </p>
<p>Sometimes it is best to wait till the next semester to take a course, in hope of getting a better prof.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the reality is that if one’s quality & quantity of one’s research along with the ability to wrangle gobs of grant money is great enough…mediocre-lousy teaching…especially for undergrads is often overlooked in practice at many research universities. Especially when being a mediocre teacher rarely impacts a research Prof’s prospects for tenure/further promotions…especially if his/her research/ability to gain grant money is trendy in his/her field and exceedingly great respectively. </p>
<p>Only exception to this is at the smaller teaching oriented universities and LACs. Even then, I’ve known of some friends at other respectable/elite LACs who were disappointed in how some of their favorite tenure track Profs had to leave despite having excellent teaching records/awards because their research agenda and quantity of excellent publications did not meet the standards of their respective departments.</p>
<p>My major research university has lecturers handle many of the intro classes. They are hired specifically to teach, evaluated on teaching, and not expected to do research. (Note: lecturers are not adjuncts–although the job is lower status than tenure track positions, they are members of the faculty, and it is a nice job for people who like to teach but don’t want to do the research rat race.)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Well, how are you going to tell the difference between a student who wasn’t taught, and a student who didn’t bother to do what they needed to do to learn, or a student who has hit the wall in a subject and couldn’t learn it no matter how it was taught. And, no, getting an A in a previous course is not enough information to tell the difference.</p>
<p>Motherbear - I fully agree with the idea of having full time instructors (with benefits) teach the intro classes. They can handle a higher courseload, do not have to worry about getting thrown out because of a tenure decision, and can be specifically chosen for their teaching ability. It is a waste to have a great researcher assigned to teach an intro class. There needs to be more division of labor. </p>
<p>When I was in college, we had an extremely popular professor teaching large intro logic classes. He was also extremely talented at advising students. He was rejected for tenure and told to pack his bags. Fortunately, there was a student uprising. The administration then created a new position for him as an administrative dean, that allowed him to continue teaching and advising. However, that end result is rare.</p>
<p>My D attends the University of Texas Austin and her experience has been completely opposite. Her professors seem engaged, available and excited to teach. She spent many hours talking to kids in the program before she even applied and she spent some time in program related courses to see what it was all about.</p>
<p>I think this thread is very important to people who are “college shopping.” One can’t judge a school by its buildings, fashion or “feel”. More time should be invested in actually knowing everything you can about a particular program or college before agreeing to attend. Visit working classrooms, labs and lecture halls. Had OPs kids actually spent two days at said University and spent that time in the classroom, would this red flag have appeared? Would it have appeared if they “interviewed” upper level college students in the program they were interested in? One may never know but certainly the culture of this program has to have a negative vibe if this type of teaching is occurring.</p>
<p>It might be better if you had physicists teaching it, considering they use it regularly and probably like it better. In contrast, research mathematicians probably never use calculus. I’d bet that its so basic that a lot of profs might hate teaching it, sort of like a college math major teaching addition.</p>
<p>Lots of good feedback going on here. I appreciate it.</p>
<p>Here’s a new twist - DS and I were talking at lunch today and he told me that Part 2 Prof - the one who took points off DS’ homework because he was writing too small - just made my DS write, “I apologize to the reader for making this hard to read” across the top of his newest homework. The prof admitted that DS’ writing is getting bigger, but still made him write this across the top of his homework. </p>
<p>Anyone else think it’s time to visit the Department Chair or College Dean?</p>
<p>But, what I think is sort of strange about the OPs story is that both of her kids are at the same school. If the older one was having such a bad experience with profs there, why would the younger choose it?</p>
<p>Agreed he should write bigger, and he is working on it. Sounds to me like bullying from the prof. Why not just tell DS to write bigger? Why make him write out an apology. Sounds like DS is getting set up to be the butt of the departmental jokes.</p>
<p>I’m surprised a prof at a large research university would be doing the grading of a large, intro class.</p>
<p>One tip for your son: do the homework once to figure it out, then copy it over and make sure it is neat. I knew people that did this on their own (though it is rare.)</p>
<p>I don’t want to seem harsh here, but by the time students get to college, they should not need to be told that whatever they turn in to be graded needs to be big enough to be legible. (And how do you know he wasn’t already told that?) Turning in illegible work and expecting someone else to read it is very inconsiderate. </p>
<p>But I doubt that your S is getting set up to be the butt of jokes–I doubt the profs are sitting around discussing students’ handwriting.</p>
<p>I’m sure TA’s grade the homework - which makes it even more demeaning for DS to have to write an apology at the top of the page. DS did write out the homework and passed it by the prof to make sure it was acceptable before turning it in. Prof told him it was better, but still made him write the apology across the top. I doubt the TA even knows what is going on here. Would it not be more mature on the professor’s part to simply ask DS to write bigger? What’s next? Writing “I will write bigger” 100 times on the chalkboard? Give me a break. Maybe the prof should buy a pair of reading glasses.</p>
<p>Although I don’t particularly agree with the professors methods, I seriously doubt he is setting your son up for any particular type of ridicule.</p>
<p>I am going out on a limb here OP. I have been known to get so far up on a soapbox, that at times am so high above the action, I can’t see “what is” for what it actually is. I can’t for sure say that is the case here, but I suspect there are a whole bunch of issues that are manifesting themselves in these current situation with your kids. I know I am bad about seeing an issue through my bitter tainted glasses (I am actively working on this flaw) and making it far larger than it would be if it were being filtered by a reasonable mind. I suppose I see this situation as something along those lines. I have worked very hard to learn to compartmentalize each “issue” a kid of mine my have and see it for just that particular problem. </p>
<p>Your son has a few issues here. </p>
<p>Issue #1-A “part 1” teacher who did not teach as far along as others in his department and now he is in a “part 2” class with another professor who did. Now could this actually be a guidance advisor issue? Could this advisor have stressed to your son that staying in with the same professor is important? I know for a fact that has been the case with my D’s second semester classes and she is in 8:00 am class she does not want to be in because of that, but she took her advisor’s advise and stayed with the same teacher. There are times when kids ignore advise because it is not convenient. (i.e., early or late class) </p>
<p>Issue #2-Professor who can’t stay on track. This professor not staying on track is not related to above professor who taught at different rates. So need to look at this for just what it is. Frankly I have no suggestion here, and I have been in training classes with people like you describe and it is very frustrating. This is an issue where “band of brother” mentality is best and if the class were to write a letter to the department head, they may get action.</p>
<p>Issue #3-Professor with bad test grade-I know you are freaking a little about son’s GPA and how that relates to grad school. I completely get it. But the fact is that a grade from last semester, at this point is more than likely not changeable. The time to react to that was the day the final grade or test grade posted. A letter written to the professor with an explanation as to why your son felt the grade was unfair would have been the proper course of action.</p>
<p>I know these issues, although separate, pile together to give you a “I hate this program” mentality. But your kids have stayed there for a reason. They have to be getting something from this or they would have either transferred or left the department for another interest that they could pursue. Is it “fair” that they should have to do that. Not really, but this University must be cranking out some kids that are doing well in this field or they would not be known in said discipline. I think there are times in everyone’s lives that you either have to"stand up", “shut up” or “put up”. I guess you just have to take a stand on which battle you want to fight.</p>
<p>@collegeshopping - you’ve given me some things to think about and ask DS to clarify. That being said, a few things come to mind with the points you’ve brought up. The one that stands out for me is his faculty advisor. His advisor told a group of students to take Linear Algebra II despite the fact that none of them had taken Linear Algebra I. DS ignored his advice (DS is minoring in another area and can take an advanced math class that serves both programs) and dropped the course prior to the start of the new semester in favor of another course. Good thing. The students who took Linear Algebra II flunked it and were dropped from their degree program. Some are trying to work their way back into the program and others simply dropped out of college for the time being (I hope). Don’t think we can trust his faculty advisor at this point. DS has found another faculty member who seems better at guiding him through the program. I am curious, through, if his faculty advisor ever mentioned to DS to take Part 1 and Part 2 with the same prof. I’ll have to find out from DS.</p>
<p>I know this is really DS’ battle to fight or not fight. I just hope parents and students on the cusp of choosing a college dig as deep as they can before making a final decision. Rankings and college visits are not enough. Reputation is not enough. Figure out a way to talk to students on campus and in the degree programs under consideration - real students, not the student ambassadors hired to talk up the university/college to prospective parents and students. While is sounds easy to simply switch universities, I think it’s easier to get it right the first time - especially when scholarships are involved.</p>
<p>At a research university, the last person that I would take advice from as far as what courses to take, is a faculty member. Most have no clue as to the content of the courses that they do not teach, even within their department. Many have no clue as to the requirements for a degree. </p>
<p>If the department has one specific faculty member as the advisor, then they might be OK for course guidance. Although, I would double check myself and also ask other students what their opinion is.</p>
<p>I say this as a non-tenured full-time instructor at a research university.</p>
<p>But at a smaller university or LAC, I completely disagree with Haystack. As a full time tenured professor, I’m constantly having to resolve problems created by the “professional advisors” who apparently have no clue about my department’s courses. And yes, it does fall to the student ultimately to take responsibility. (Although advice to sign up for Part II of a sequence without Part I seems like simple bad advice, based solely on common sense. Possibly Part I was full and they wanted to fill the seats in II, but still…)</p>
<p>Thinking about this “bad professor” thing in context, there are going to be bad apples in any profession and our kids are going to have to work for “bad bosses.” Goodness knows that in the past week, my family has run across multiple ****s in different contexts - maybe the bad prof will turn out to be good life skills training.</p>