Awkward situation with PI, advice very much welcome!

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi,</p>

<p>I'm having a bit of a issue with my 'employer' and was just wondering how adults besides my own would suggest I handle this.</p>

<p>Anyways, I was accepted to a relatively prestigious summer research program. I have prior research experience in a different field (cancer research) and was assigned to an immunology lab. </p>

<p>However, the catch is- I met with my mentor in March, before I applied to the program. I emailed him and asked if I could work with him; he said yes and told me to email the program coordinator and say I'm working with him. At that time, he figured out a project for me and also asked me to blog for his Institute as part of an experiment with HS students. The publicity director was supposed to get in touch with me or vice versa. He also said that if I did a good job, I could publish a paper on it. </p>

<p>Anyways, so today at the lab meeting, I found out that he accepted a girl who recently graduated from a local and I think he's assigned her to the same project as me. This is problematic for me because I think I have to do my own project for the program and I believe if we team up, I will not get sufficient research exposure and experience. This bugs me because I really, really, really want to work on a project by myself, struggle through it myself and learn. </p>

<p>Furthermore, this messes up not only the publication thing (which I am really hoping for, as part of my app to US school) and also my International Science and Engineering Fair Team Canada application. I was shortlisted for it this year and instead went to the national fair, where I won a medal. It's very important for me to be able to participate in this competition in 2013 as it's my last chance before US college apps are due and I don't think I can participate if my partner is a university student. All participants must be in high school, and I am obligated to tell the truth about who I worked with on the project.</p>

<p>Soo yeah, I'm sort of confused and unhappy about this, but I don't know how to approach this. It's really important to me that I get to do my own independent work for many reasons. I haven't yet met with my PI formally (he wants to see us together on monday morning- he's planing on talking to us about it then). </p>

<p>Anyways, sorry for this jumbled rant/message, but I'm kind of freaking out and am wondering if you have any advice on what to do. :)</p>

<p>Edit: I don't mean to sound ungrateful or anything, if that's what I'm coming off as. I am very thankful that this guy accepted me and I'm sure he's a wonderful person. It's just that doing my own project is very, very important for me :(</p>

2

<p>First, it seems like you are not even sure yet whether she was assigned to the same project, so you need to wait and see what the plan is. Second, if the mentor has any experience with students doing research, he isn’t going to assign you both the same task. Perhaps there is enough work for both of you. One of the things you will have to learn is how to collaborate with others.</p>

<p>Not sure about the Team Canada thing.</p>

3

<p>Thanks for the reply! I know he has experience with postdocs and grad students, maybe undergards but definitely not with high school students. I’m his first, I’m pretty sure.</p>

<p>Well, he referred to the two of us jointly in the lab meeting and said "you guys will be doing [insert name here]’. Also, the grad student who is directly supervising us also sort of made it sound like we’re working on the same stuff.</p>

<p>I have no issue with collaborating, per se, but when I first came in- he said I would work on it by myself and that it was a project I could complete in 8 weeks. If that was true, then there is no need to work together cuz the task is manageable for 1 person. </p>

<p>I feel by being forced to work with someone else, I’ll be denied an opportunity to learn techniques and work like a <em>real</em> scientist. </p>

<p>Does anyone have any suggestions on how to bring it up with him? Thanks ! :)</p>

4

<p>I think this is a good opportunity to prove how adaptable you can be.
It will give you a good idea if you should continue to pursue this path.</p>

5

<p>Are you sure that you’re only supposed to work on the project yourself? If you’re a high school student, that seems a little ridiculous. I’m doing an internship this summer through a program that sounds similar to yours, and almost everyone indicates not only their mentor, but also undergraduate/graduate students they worked with or helped. </p>

<p>I don’t think you should say anything to your mentor and you should just deal with the other girl. You never know, she might add something to your project that you could never do on your own. Also, if both your names are on a published paper, that won’t look any worse than if just yours was. </p>

<p>Good luck, and be grateful that you were accepted into the internship!</p>

6

<p>I don’t have a problem adapting and stuff, but I feel like I’m being denied an opportunity to learn techniques and do things my own. I’m frankly sick of this happening too, because so many times undergrads and grad students wouldn’t let me do any of my own work and just when I get a chance to be like a real researcher, it gets torn away from me.</p>

<p>@astults, a grad student will teach me the ropes and techniques, but I will conduct the experiments and plan everything. At least I was going to… </p>

<p>And I am grateful, but this has really cast a cloud on everything- my team Canada dreams and the learning experience.</p>

7

<p>While I do not know how adept you are at science and science research, I think it is ridiculous to leave a high school student to do and plan a project on his own.</p>

8

<p>

Perhaps you have a naive idea about how “real” scientists work. Lots of collaboration and working together on projects. Not a bunch of wild-haired mad scientists each hunkered down in their isolated little laboratories…</p>

9

<p>But it’s not a particularly big or difficult project. It’s something 1 science oriented undergraduate summer student could do :confused: . I don’t think 2 people are needed for this one project which my prof said I could do in 8 weeks singlehandedly. I understand collaboration
; I just think that it’s unnecessary in this case when it’s not that hard of thing to do. Im not curing cancer by myself here!</p>

<p>Planning a project is not particularly hard. You need to know he questions and the corresponding experiments that can answer these questions. Writing a proposal is not very difficult if you truly understand the literature. The experiments may be tricky, but the assay I’m going to be using is again not very difficult. The project is in my mentor’s words: ’ something you can do and learn from yet sill get meaningful results’. </p>

<p>Thanks for the responses!</p>

10

<p>

</p>

<p>why do you think HS kids are qualified to work like an actual scientist? Do you even know what an actual scientist does?</p>

11

<p>By that I meant the opportunity to work independently, plan out my experiments, find literature by myself, seek help by myself etc. </p>

<p>I’ve worked in a multitude of labs, written many proposals, collaborated with people across the country and written a LOI for a grant app. </p>

<p>There’s no point in asking around here for advice, since you guys don’t understand my perspective on this. I’ll talk to my PD and figure something out by myself. </p>

<p>Thanks for giving me your opinion; regardless of whether it was helpful or not, it was still kind of you to respond. </p>

<p>Mods, if you could please close this thread, I would be very much obliged.</p>

12

<p>Not to be too harsh, but your post does have an “all about me” and “what’s in it for me” tone to it… I was just reading today about what a hard time the Noble committee is going to have deciding who to give the Noble to for the Higgs (obviously Peter Higgs, but who else?) because of the huge collaborative effort required to get to the recent announcement. The article went on to talk about how much science is done collaboratively today, and how many significant accomplisments in the scientific field are now a result of teams of 25+ people working on them. So… there is actually a lot to be gained from working well with a team. That is what “real scientists” do these days. To me you do come across as ungrateful, to be honest. As an adult, I find that often assignments in my work are not exactly as they were presented to start with, and being agile and able to roll with the changes is seen as highly desirable by employers.</p>

<p>One suggestion is if you are indeed assigned to the same thing, brainstorm with the other student to see if you can expand your project scope to accomplish more in the summer than just the original scope. Take your suggestions to the professor as a team to see if you can do a bigger project, since there are two of you. Maybe she has the same desire to do more individual work, and you can figure out how to carve up into two pieces (maybe even with some synergy in the final result, but two independent paths or something). I would approach that gently, though, in case that is NOT what she is thinking. And, I would not make it all about you and your future awards/publications. You probably won’t come out with a very good recommendation from the professor if he thinks that is all you want out of the summer.</p>

13

<p>I am grateful that I have had these chances. I am thankful he accepted me, too. The thing is, I really wanted to do more independent work and grow up a bit, be more responsible and in charge. That’s it really. I just want the chance to do research like a grad student- go to work, figure stuff out for myself etc. </p>

<p>Perhaps I am being self centered and selfish and I’m sorry for behaving so immaturely. It is sometimes tough to look at the bigger picture when you’re in a high pressure environment all the time.</p>

<p>I will go talk to my mentor on Monday and ask if I can expand the project a bit or do a side project in addition to this or something else. That way, hopefully research goals can be fulfilled and all is well. </p>

<p>Thanks for the reply; it definitely put stuff more into perspective for me.</p>

14

<p>You might keep one more thing in mind… your mentor is bringing you on to help advance his research. You are the lowest one on the totem pole, whether you like it or not. You aren’t a grad student. Your mentor probably does want to help expose young scientists to his area of research, and help you decide if you are interested in a career in it. But he is not all about helping you publish individually or “work on your own”. That is just not his reason for bringing you on. A GREAT recommendation from him might go further for you than an individually published paper; you can still publish something even if it is joint, too. Just having your name on a published paper is a good accomplishment. If you continue in research, you literally have 50 years in the lab ahead of you. Just to help keep it in perspective.</p>

<p>If I were you, I would be much more focused on how you can be of the greatest assistance to your mentor and still learn a lot this summer.</p>

15

<p>That’s true :frowning: I think I’m being a bit blinded by my own wishes. I’ll still give talking to him a shot and be the best I can there. Sometimes I just wish I was in grad school, haha. I just don’t think I’ll really learn science until I get to do stuff on my own. It’s not scientific inquiry if you just listen to what someone tells you and get spoonfed the whole way through and don’t really get a chance to design any experiments or do anything. :frowning: </p>

<p>Anyways, for top science fair projects, you really need to do something innovative and brilliant. Maybe I’ll concentrate my efforts on being sufficiently impressive this summer and hopefully I can convince him to let me investigate something on my own during the school year.</p>

16

<p>I think it is better to have too much structure than less. Even if the two of you work together, rotate the actual tasks, you can finish quicker. Than look around lab and attach yourself to a second project.</p>

17

<p>I think it’s understandable that you’re disappointed because you had such specific expectations and desires for your “last chance” HS project. It’s good that you’re realizing these are your expectations… rather than an objective problem with the potential position. I think it’s fine to go to the meeting still keeping in mind the considerations of what you’d ideally like, but I just want to underline what others here have said and you seem to be beginning to get – Relationships are everything in the academic world. Who you know - how one opportunity or project can lead to the next. You might benefit from working with the grad student or the mentor or anyone else you have an opportunity to meet, as long as you impress them with your true desire to learn and perfect your skills.</p>

<p>On the other hand, there are far too many prestige hunters out there and people who want “credit” rather than actual accomplishment. Real serious work absolutely takes place collaboratively, even if you do get chances to design an experiment, etc. I do think it’s fine to say you’d like to have chances to design experiments and perhaps to do some independent research on this topic… that shouldn’t put them off.</p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

18

<p>I am curious whether you discussed your intentions to enter a science competition with your PI when you applied to the program? </p>

<p>People join and leave research groups all the time. Unless you had an explicit understanding that you needed an individual project, it’s not really surprising that you got a lab mate later.</p>

<p>Do you even know if your project is suitable as a science competition entry? Lots of lab work involves repeating an experiment 500 times, where the PI decides the experiment and everyone else follows orders.</p>

19

<p>I think you are putting too much emphasis on the science fair. It’s an honor to win, but does not reflect actual research processes and I think it has skewed your thinking about this lab opportunity. Your PI is running a real project that requires teamwork and long time frames. Picture yourself off in the corner working on an 8-week science project; who else is going to take that seriously?</p>

<p>Do the science fair stuff later.</p>

20

<p>@OP: I understand where you’re coming from, but I think you might have to accept that you’re just a high school student, and might not be given the chance to do independent research. I was in the same position as you at the beginning of my internship, but I had to accept that I was only assisting a grad student on their project. It seems like you will still have a lot of freedom and opportunity to showcase your skills, so don’t be disappointed yet.</p>